An overcrowded maximum-security prison is dramatically changed by the…
Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate (Part 1)
- Description
- Reviews
- Citation
- Cataloging
- Transcript
This layered film by acclaimed filmmaker Helen Whitney addresses the act of forgiveness, which is a theological principle central to all major religions, but is more and more frequently leaving the church, synagogue and mosque and hitting the fractious streets. Inevitably its new role in the world raises serious and complex questions: why is forgiveness in the air today; what is its power, and what are its limitations and in some instances its dangers; has it been cheapened or deepened...or both? Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate seeks to shed insight into the light and darkness - the presence and absence - of forgiveness.
The film covers a wide range of stories from personal betrayal to genocide. Among them: the spontaneous demonstration of forgiveness following the 2006 shooting of Amish children in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania; a savage and senseless attack on two young female campers; the struggle of a '60s radical to cope with the consequences of a violent act of protest that turned deadly; the shattering of a family after the mother abandons her husband and children; the penitential journey of modern Germany, coming to terms with the Holocaust; and stories of survivors of the Rwandan genocide.
'This documentary, more than any that exist today, treats forgiveness as the complex phenomenon it is. It is strongest in examining the difficulties yet benefits of societal forgiveness--especially the limits of societal forgiveness where people have been grievously harmed. Forgiveness is costly, and in this movie forgiveness is always seen in context of responsibility and justice. If you are looking for a simple, feel-good, surface look at forgiving, this isn't it. If you want a thoughtful understanding, this movie will challenge you to grow.' Dr. Everett Worthington, Professor, Department of Psychology, Virginia Commonwealth University, Author, Forgiveness and Reconciliation: Theory and Application
'Forgiveness: A Time to Love and A Time to Hate raises in both personal and global contexts central questions that are inescapable for everyone who has been made to suffer--even to suffer unspeakably--and for everyone who has caused this suffering for others...Drawing on deeply moving, engaging, and frequently graphic case studies of persons, families, communities, countries, and international relations, the film successfully plumbs some of the deepest dimensions of human experience and successfully calls forth equally deep reflection. It does this by working within and respecting plural points of view, by refusing to preach or to indoctrinate, and by calling on individuals to take ultimate responsibility for the choices they make and for the choices they refrain from making. In short, it is excellent. As you can tell, I was impressed (beyond expectations) by the film. Thorough congratulations to those who created it.' John Stuhr, Professor, Philosophy and American Studies, Emory University, Author, Beyond Forgiveness
'This engrossing, provocative film raises significant questions about whether forgiveness is possible, who is entitled to forgive and who is entitled to forgiveness. In portraying stories from the most intimate to the most global, we are asked to grapple with our own assumptions and even prejudices - is a mother who leaves her family more in need of forgiveness than a father who does so? Can a religious community hold fast to its values only because secular law enforcement will keep the peace? Can there be a statute of limitations on repentance? This courageous and comprehensive examination of humanity's capacity for elevation and degradation provides great value for communities in both educational and religious settings to engage in reflection and soul-searching, robust and complex discussion, and authentic spiritual struggle.' Rabbi Patricia Karlin-Neumann and Reverend Joanne Sanders, Deans for Religious Life, Stanford University
'This is a very even-handed presentation of the challenge of individual, social and political responses to serious, intentional harm, from the emotional damage inflicted by individuals upon one another all the way to the radical evil of murder and wide-spread violence. Through a thoughtful choice of commentators and a gripping set of stories, the film explores forgiveness and related processes, showing how complex they are, and that they are often impossible to achieve, and why. Forgiveness is a very good tool for the university classroom that will also be of interest to the general public.' Dr. Elizabeth A. Cole, Senior Program Officer, The United States Institute of Peace
'Forgiveness is not just some nebulous, vague idea that one can easily dismiss. Without forgiveness there is no future. To forgive is the only way to change the world permanently. This film...enter[s] into a deep conversation as to how we can all accomplish this world-changing--world-affirming task.' Archbishop Desmond Tutu
'Forgiveness is difficult and complex. It can involve issues of justice and reparations and of course deep seated anger and the wish for revenge. Forgiveness is not a question of forgetting the wrong done; if you've forgotten what was done, there is nothing to forgive. Forgiveness involves refusing to allow yourself to give in to anger and the desire for revenge. This is why forgiveness ultimately brings peace...a powerful exploration of this most important subject.' His Holiness The Dalai Lama
'A useful set of case studies that are provocative and should stimulate interesting discussion. The cinematography is beautiful, providing not only a stimulating, but also very pleasing aesthetic, experience.' Frank Fincham, Eminent Scholar and Director, Family Institute, Florida State University
'Several real life studies offer road maps for those seeking to atone or offer forgiveness...In Forgiveness, Whitney travels the globe interviewing penitents and forgivers, People dealing with the aftermath of random acts of violence or war are offered as meditative examples of moving on, regardless of whether forgiveness is desired or possible.' Brittany Shoot, Sojourners Magazine
'A profoundly stirring work...The word 'powerful' does not begin to give adequate praise to this work. This is a grand enterprise treating the ethics of a series of fundamental human emotions and consequent behaviors. It skillfully balances the grim with the sanguine. With such a delicate topic, the filmmakers never once appear preachy or sensationalist. This brilliant work is strongly recommended to all who wish to stimulate discussion or even privately reflect on the place of forgiveness in the world.' Michael Coffta, Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania, Educational Media Reviews Online
'A fair-minded, thought-provoking documentary about a complex and elusive concept. Recommended.' Video Librarian
'Highly recommended.' The Midwest Book Review
'Outstanding...Highly recommended as a teaching resource in psychology and philosophy and their various subfields.' Library Journal
'Helen Whitney calls 'the spiritual landscape' her filmmaking beat, and that's on stark display in Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate....Forgiveness is a complex, elusive subject and Whitney...does not shy away from difficult aspects of the topic.' OregonLive.com
'Offer[s] a rare chance to shine a clear light on the question of forgiveness in all its complexities, horror and hope...Forgiveness will not be an exercise in easy answers or cheap grace...Leaves the viewer both daunted and emboldened. The need for forgiveness is far more complex, and yet even more central to the human existence than we may have thought.' Huffington Post
'A thought-provoking examination of both the promise and the limits of interpersonal reconciliation.' Catholic News Service
'There's really no easy generalizations about forgiveness, according to Whitney, and there is no one meaning--it is different for each person based on their own needs. For some people, it's conditional. For others, it's the height of therapy. And still, for others, it's a gift. I definitely recommend Whitney's film as one that will make you search deep inside and help you discover your own meaning of forgiveness and even think about what, if anything, is 'unforgiveable.'' Jacksonville.com
'There is a fascinating abundance of introspection and eloquence in Forgiveness, but no easy or cheap answers...Captivating, devoid of all the cheap nonsense we have grown accustomed to.' BostonHerald.com
'Mesmeric...An intelligent, stimulating treatment of a social change that affects everyone, either on a personal level or as a citizen of Planet Earth.' Technorati Film
'I thought it was going to be one of those boring religious treatises...It isn't that at all, but it is. It's that and much more, raising questions rather than providing answers, driving to the core of human morality in the area of personal and national failures, and calling on us to decide whether atonement is a valid response to horror.' Al Martinez, Daily News Los Angeles
'Forgiveness explores a virtue fraught with hope and danger...The stunning genius of this rich and poignant documentary is its careful probing, through narratives, of the limits, possibilities and reality of forgiveness...I will watch and re-watch this thoughtful and deep documentary, which raises new questions about a primordial human ache.' America, The National Catholic Weekly
'Deeply emotional in that it inevitably connects with anyone and everyone on some kind of level...Will no doubt leave you a little shaken...A Highly Recommended documentary as you really won't see anything else quite like it.' The World's Finest DVD Report
Citation
Main credits
Whitney, Helen (Producer)
Whitney, Helen (Director)
Whitney, Helen (Screenwriter)
Winterburn, Ted (Film editor)
Sanderson, Paul G (Cinematographer)
Walker, Kathryn (Narrator)
Bilous, Edward (Composer)
DiBucci, Michelle (Composer)
Neiman, Adam (Composer)
Other credits
Director of photography, Paul G. Sanderson III; edited by Ted Winterburn; original music composed by Edward Bilous, Michelle Dibucci, Adam Neiman.
Distributor subjects
African Studies; Anthropology; Conflict Resolution; Ethics; European Studies; Global Issues; HIV/AIDS; History; Holocaust; Human Rights; Humanities; International Studies; Law; Philosophy; Psychology; Religion; Social Psychology; SociologyKeywords
WEBVTT
00:00:02.209 --> 00:00:05.208
[lights clicking]
00:00:05.209 --> 00:00:11.209
[solemn orchestral music]
00:00:26.792 --> 00:00:31.583
female narrator: Forgiveness
is elusive, mysterious.
00:00:31.584 --> 00:00:34.584
It is an idea, an ache.
00:00:36.167 --> 00:00:39.249
For centuries, forgiveness
has belonged to religion.
00:00:39.250 --> 00:00:43.041
It was expressed
in prayer and meditation.
00:00:43.042 --> 00:00:44.998
Though its practice varies,
00:00:44.999 --> 00:00:48.292
it is embedded
in all of our religious texts.
00:00:50.459 --> 00:00:54.583
Muslims pray five times a day
asking for forgiveness.
00:00:54.584 --> 00:00:56.708
During the month of Ramadan,
00:00:56.709 --> 00:00:59.082
there is a holiday called
the Night of Power,
00:00:59.083 --> 00:01:01.500
when Muslims stay awake
all night
00:01:01.501 --> 00:01:03.082
praying for forgiveness
00:01:03.083 --> 00:01:04.998
so that the scroll
of their actions
00:01:04.999 --> 00:01:08.917
will be cleansed of their sins.
00:01:08.918 --> 00:01:11.291
[woman singing in Hebrew]
00:01:11.292 --> 00:01:12.917
The Day of Atonement,
00:01:12.918 --> 00:01:15.291
the most important
Jewish holiday,
00:01:15.292 --> 00:01:17.500
is centered on forgiveness.
00:01:17.501 --> 00:01:19.374
- Forgive our sins
as you have promised
00:01:19.375 --> 00:01:22.998
on this Sabbath day
and on this Yom Kippur day.
00:01:22.999 --> 00:01:25.333
Narrator:
By its long attachment
00:01:25.334 --> 00:01:27.708
to the Catholic sacrament
of penance,
00:01:27.709 --> 00:01:28.998
forgiveness
has become synonymous
00:01:28.999 --> 00:01:31.541
with a hushed and private
whispered exchange
00:01:31.542 --> 00:01:34.917
between priest and sinner.
00:01:34.918 --> 00:01:38.998
For Christians, Christ\'s
final words on the cross,
00:01:38.999 --> 00:01:42.374
asking God to forgive those
who crucified him,
00:01:42.375 --> 00:01:45.791
are the defining text.
00:01:45.792 --> 00:01:49.333
- God says, \"Behold,
I make all things new,\"
00:01:49.334 --> 00:01:54.833
not patched, not repaired
but new,
00:01:54.834 --> 00:01:59.208
and I think that
that\'s what forgiveness does.
00:01:59.209 --> 00:02:02.833
Narrator: While it was once
a uniquely religious word,
00:02:02.834 --> 00:02:05.998
forgiveness now is changing,
00:02:05.999 --> 00:02:09.625
and there is no consensus
about what it is
00:02:09.626 --> 00:02:12.833
and what it is becoming.
00:02:12.834 --> 00:02:14.833
- Where is forgiveness rooted
00:02:14.834 --> 00:02:19.208
among those who don\'t hold
to a personal God?
00:02:19.209 --> 00:02:21.208
- Can we forgive without God?
00:02:21.209 --> 00:02:22.833
Yes.
00:02:22.834 --> 00:02:23.998
I believe most of us
00:02:23.999 --> 00:02:25.833
have a moral compass
inside of us.
00:02:25.834 --> 00:02:28.998
- There\'s tremendous conflict
when it comes to forgiveness
00:02:28.999 --> 00:02:31.625
For some people,
it must be unconditional.
00:02:31.626 --> 00:02:32.998
- Unconditional forgiveness?
00:02:32.999 --> 00:02:34.416
No, there are conditions:
00:02:34.417 --> 00:02:36.416
repentance, contrition,
reparations,
00:02:36.417 --> 00:02:37.833
and ultimately justice.
00:02:37.834 --> 00:02:39.208
- If I\'m waiting
for her to apologize
00:02:39.209 --> 00:02:40.625
in a way that works for me,
00:02:40.626 --> 00:02:44.082
I actually think I\'d be waiting
the rest of my life.
00:02:44.083 --> 00:02:48.708
- There is a line where
it\'s unjustified to forgive
00:02:48.709 --> 00:02:50.750
or even to say it\'s okay.
00:02:50.751 --> 00:02:52.998
- Forgiveness means
I don\'t have to carry around
00:02:52.999 --> 00:02:55.833
a horrible, concrete ball
00:02:55.834 --> 00:03:00.416
of painful, awful,
suffering rage.
00:03:00.417 --> 00:03:01.917
- There are times when
00:03:01.918 --> 00:03:03.998
you\'re supposed to retain
your anger and your rage.
00:03:03.999 --> 00:03:06.708
- Genuine forgiveness means that
00:03:06.709 --> 00:03:08.998
that one who
would have been the enemy
00:03:08.999 --> 00:03:11.082
is no longer the enemy.
00:03:11.083 --> 00:03:15.708
- What can one say
of the issue of forgiveness?
00:03:15.709 --> 00:03:19.082
It is an issue
of life and death.
00:03:19.083 --> 00:03:21.082
Narrator: However
you define forgiveness,
00:03:21.083 --> 00:03:23.166
its power is real,
00:03:23.167 --> 00:03:24.998
and never more so
than when it struggles
00:03:24.999 --> 00:03:26.998
with the unforgivable,
00:03:26.999 --> 00:03:29.708
whether in the killing fields
of Rwanda
00:03:29.709 --> 00:03:34.917
or in a small courtroom
in Oregon.
00:03:34.918 --> 00:03:37.708
Gary Ridgway
admitted killing 90 women
00:03:37.709 --> 00:03:40.500
over a period of 20 years.
00:03:40.501 --> 00:03:41.833
He plead guilty
00:03:41.834 --> 00:03:44.625
and received life imprisonment
without a parole.
00:03:44.626 --> 00:03:45.998
At the sentence hearing
00:03:45.999 --> 00:03:49.166
in a courtroom crowded with
the families who rose to speak,
00:03:49.167 --> 00:03:53.750
Gary Ridgway listened
seemingly impassive
00:03:53.751 --> 00:03:58.917
to their rage and to their loss.
00:03:58.918 --> 00:04:02.083
- I don\'t know
how to describe the pain.
00:04:03.999 --> 00:04:05.999
It\'s inside.
00:04:08.959 --> 00:04:11.959
There\'s no words for it.
00:04:21.626 --> 00:04:24.625
There\'s no closure.
00:04:24.626 --> 00:04:27.626
It goes on forever.
00:04:32.209 --> 00:04:34.416
I cannot forgive this man.
00:04:34.417 --> 00:04:36.998
It\'s not within my power.
00:04:36.999 --> 00:04:40.918
That I have to leave up to God.
00:04:43.584 --> 00:04:48.625
- There are people here
that hate you.
00:04:48.626 --> 00:04:50.998
[sighs]
00:04:50.999 --> 00:04:53.500
I\'m not one of them.
00:04:53.501 --> 00:04:59.791
I forgive you
for what you\'ve done.
00:04:59.792 --> 00:05:02.998
That is what God says to do,
00:05:02.999 --> 00:05:05.998
and that\'s to forgive,
00:05:05.999 --> 00:05:08.999
so you are forgiven, sir.
00:05:11.375 --> 00:05:13.998
Narrator: Forgiveness can
penetrate the darkest souls,
00:05:13.999 --> 00:05:17.625
if only for a moment.
00:05:17.626 --> 00:05:20.998
Perhaps its power
is most acutely felt
00:05:20.999 --> 00:05:23.583
in our very last hours.
00:05:23.584 --> 00:05:26.998
Then forgiveness
presses in on us urgently.
00:05:26.999 --> 00:05:30.998
It can be a source
of comfort or anguish.
00:05:30.999 --> 00:05:34.998
For over a year, Merle Long
lived in a hospice,
00:05:34.999 --> 00:05:37.541
unwilling to die.
00:05:37.542 --> 00:05:40.333
He had a secret
hidden from his family
00:05:40.334 --> 00:05:42.541
that tormented him,
00:05:42.542 --> 00:05:45.750
and only recently
did he reveal it.
00:05:45.751 --> 00:05:48.541
At the very end
of an exemplary life,
00:05:48.542 --> 00:05:51.124
he felt unforgiven.
00:05:51.125 --> 00:05:55.082
- I was in the infantry
during World War II.
00:05:55.083 --> 00:05:58.998
I was an executive officer.
00:05:58.999 --> 00:06:01.998
At the time,
we were deep in Germany.
00:06:01.999 --> 00:06:05.291
We got close to a little town
called Nordhausen.
00:06:05.292 --> 00:06:09.998
There was a concentration camp
where there were bodies,
00:06:09.999 --> 00:06:12.333
rotting bodies,
00:06:12.334 --> 00:06:16.249
and I can still smell them.
00:06:16.250 --> 00:06:18.998
We had a bunch
of German prisoners
00:06:18.999 --> 00:06:20.998
that we wanted to get
back to the back,
00:06:20.999 --> 00:06:25.416
and so there was one person came
up and said,
00:06:25.417 --> 00:06:28.708
\"He killed your lieutenant
with a pitchfork.\"
00:06:28.709 --> 00:06:30.998
He was unarmed,
00:06:30.999 --> 00:06:33.708
and I shot him.
00:06:33.709 --> 00:06:36.998
I ask God to forgive me
every day.
00:06:36.999 --> 00:06:39.999
It hurts deeply.
00:06:42.209 --> 00:06:44.208
God, forgive me.
00:06:44.209 --> 00:06:47.750
God, forgive me.
00:06:47.751 --> 00:06:49.750
Narrator: Forgiveness
is an urgent question
00:06:49.751 --> 00:06:52.625
not only for the dying
but for the living,
00:06:52.626 --> 00:06:56.417
especially for those who
have already suffered greatly.
00:07:09.334 --> 00:07:10.708
Narrator: Gideon Nieuwoudt
00:07:10.709 --> 00:07:13.082
was a member of South Africa\'s
security forces
00:07:13.083 --> 00:07:14.708
during Apartheid
00:07:14.709 --> 00:07:16.291
and established
a horrific record
00:07:16.292 --> 00:07:20.625
of abductions, killings,
and torture of activists.
00:07:20.626 --> 00:07:21.998
While in prison,
00:07:21.999 --> 00:07:25.625
he applied to South Africa\'s
Truth Commission for amnesty
00:07:25.626 --> 00:07:28.791
in exchange for telling
the truth about his killings.
00:07:28.792 --> 00:07:31.291
He claimed to have
had a religious conversion
00:07:31.292 --> 00:07:33.791
and was experiencing remorse.
00:07:33.792 --> 00:07:36.166
He asked to meet the family
of one of the young men
00:07:36.167 --> 00:07:37.998
whom he had murdered.
00:07:37.999 --> 00:07:40.666
For over 15 years,
he had rebuffed their attempt
00:07:40.667 --> 00:07:42.998
to learn their son\'s fate.
00:07:42.999 --> 00:07:45.291
Nieuwoudt had tormented
the mother,
00:07:45.292 --> 00:07:46.998
calling her in for questioning,
00:07:46.999 --> 00:07:49.791
claiming she was hiding her son,
00:07:49.792 --> 00:07:52.501
knowing all the while
he was dead.
00:07:56.999 --> 00:07:59.209
Narrator: Now he wanted
their forgiveness.
00:08:13.042 --> 00:08:16.292
- Mm-hmm.
00:08:31.584 --> 00:08:33.998
- When did you start
being a Christian?
00:08:33.999 --> 00:08:37.333
- I think we might...
We may be...
00:08:37.334 --> 00:08:38.541
[pottery shatters]
00:08:38.542 --> 00:08:40.333
[all shouting]
00:08:40.334 --> 00:08:43.708
narrator: If the request
for forgiveness comes too late,
00:08:43.709 --> 00:08:44.998
if it is felt to be false
00:08:44.999 --> 00:08:47.458
or to violate
our sense of justice,
00:08:47.459 --> 00:08:49.875
then it can provoke outrage,
00:08:49.876 --> 00:08:53.999
even understandable violence.
00:08:55.667 --> 00:08:58.666
The questions about the power,
the limitations,
00:08:58.667 --> 00:09:00.750
and the dangers of forgiveness
00:09:00.751 --> 00:09:03.542
have been debated
over the centuries.
00:09:05.999 --> 00:09:10.500
But what is new is that
forgiveness is everywhere.
00:09:10.501 --> 00:09:13.998
It is in the air today
as never before.
00:09:13.999 --> 00:09:16.333
The new forgiveness is immodest.
00:09:16.334 --> 00:09:18.208
It is sweeping in its reach.
00:09:18.209 --> 00:09:19.998
It has left the pulpit
00:09:19.999 --> 00:09:21.833
and is at the heart
of the therapy hour
00:09:21.834 --> 00:09:24.998
and the 12-step movements
across the world.
00:09:24.999 --> 00:09:27.583
It is the subject
of scholarly conferences
00:09:27.584 --> 00:09:30.750
and fills
self-help bookshelves.
00:09:30.751 --> 00:09:32.998
Forgiveness has moved
into laboratories
00:09:32.999 --> 00:09:34.541
and under the microscope.
00:09:34.542 --> 00:09:38.541
Scientists are asking,
is it an imperative of biology
00:09:38.542 --> 00:09:40.998
or even of evolutionary
survival?
00:09:40.999 --> 00:09:42.917
But why now?
00:09:42.918 --> 00:09:48.082
- We live in a much more
compressed, globalized world.
00:09:48.083 --> 00:09:52.998
Everything is instantaneously
known in our digital age,
00:09:52.999 --> 00:09:56.249
in the world of the internet.
00:09:56.250 --> 00:10:01.041
People see things on YouTube.
00:10:01.042 --> 00:10:04.249
People are exposed on blogs.
00:10:04.250 --> 00:10:06.041
There is no longer a possibility
00:10:06.042 --> 00:10:08.998
for people to hide their shame.
00:10:08.999 --> 00:10:12.875
We have an absence
of private lives.
00:10:12.876 --> 00:10:17.333
And all of us have become
very lurid spectators.
00:10:17.334 --> 00:10:19.750
There is a kind
of public enjoyment of ritual
00:10:19.751 --> 00:10:24.333
of watching people express
the language of apologies
00:10:24.334 --> 00:10:26.166
and deliver forgiveness.
00:10:26.167 --> 00:10:28.998
Male announcer: Welcome
to \"Forgive or Forget.\"
00:10:28.999 --> 00:10:31.166
And now the host
of \"Forgive or Forget,\"
00:10:31.167 --> 00:10:33.374
Mother Love.
00:10:33.375 --> 00:10:35.166
- Hello, everyone.
00:10:35.167 --> 00:10:37.041
Welcome to \"Forgive or Forget.\"
00:10:37.042 --> 00:10:38.666
- I just want Joanne
00:10:38.667 --> 00:10:41.041
to forgive herself
more than anybody,
00:10:41.042 --> 00:10:43.249
because she still holds it in.
00:10:43.250 --> 00:10:46.416
- Because what I did,
I would not do that to a dog.
00:10:46.417 --> 00:10:48.625
I wouldn\'t do that
to a person, like, I hate.
00:10:48.626 --> 00:10:49.875
I love my mother.
- Thank you.
00:10:49.876 --> 00:10:51.041
- We\'ll be right back.
00:10:51.042 --> 00:10:52.750
[applause]
00:10:52.751 --> 00:10:54.541
- These are
the agents of forgiveness
00:10:54.542 --> 00:10:56.124
in a popular culture.
00:10:56.125 --> 00:10:57.958
There\'s a certain amount
of confusion
00:10:57.959 --> 00:10:59.333
about what forgiveness is.
00:10:59.334 --> 00:11:01.333
What is forgiveness, exactly?
00:11:01.334 --> 00:11:04.333
Well, forgiveness
is a profound transaction
00:11:04.334 --> 00:11:05.998
involving individuals.
00:11:05.999 --> 00:11:08.999
It shouldn\'t be blurred.
00:11:10.167 --> 00:11:11.583
Narrator: In the end,
00:11:11.584 --> 00:11:15.166
forgiveness knows no boundaries
of time or place.
00:11:15.167 --> 00:11:18.998
It is an ache in the human heart
that has endured.
00:11:18.999 --> 00:11:23.124
The need for forgiveness
is that essential.
00:11:23.125 --> 00:11:26.333
While new meanings have emerged
and are contested,
00:11:26.334 --> 00:11:30.124
the old questions persist:
00:11:30.125 --> 00:11:32.374
Why forgive?
00:11:32.375 --> 00:11:35.124
What are the roots
of forgiveness?
00:11:35.125 --> 00:11:38.959
And are they embedded
in this world or another?
00:11:43.209 --> 00:11:46.998
For the Amish,
the answer is unambiguous.
00:11:46.999 --> 00:11:52.291
Forgiveness is an absolute
and not of this world.
00:11:52.292 --> 00:11:56.082
- The Amish way
of unconditional forgiveness
00:11:56.083 --> 00:11:58.708
out of obedience to God
00:11:58.709 --> 00:12:03.998
is awesome, amazing,
00:12:03.999 --> 00:12:06.998
of true mystery,
00:12:06.999 --> 00:12:10.791
of true and radical otherness.
00:12:10.792 --> 00:12:14.166
But in the end, to me,
00:12:14.167 --> 00:12:15.999
it\'s dangerous.
00:12:20.417 --> 00:12:24.416
- Amish schoolhouses are thought
to be the most safe haven,
00:12:24.417 --> 00:12:28.416
the safest retreat of schools,
00:12:28.417 --> 00:12:30.708
probably on Earth.
00:12:30.709 --> 00:12:33.709
[children singing]
00:12:38.501 --> 00:12:42.458
narrator: On a cloudless
October morning in 2006,
00:12:42.459 --> 00:12:46.458
Amish children were gathered
in their one-room schoolhouse.
00:12:46.459 --> 00:12:49.041
A man entered
with an arsenal of guns
00:12:49.042 --> 00:12:51.249
and anger against God
00:12:51.250 --> 00:12:53.750
and shattered the peacefulness
and serenity
00:12:53.751 --> 00:12:55.666
of this small community.
00:12:55.667 --> 00:12:58.667
[gunshots]
00:13:09.501 --> 00:13:12.500
- I went over
the crest of the road,
00:13:12.501 --> 00:13:15.709
and I saw
a one-room schoolhouse.
00:13:18.042 --> 00:13:22.249
And I saw a massive amount
of ambulances,
00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:26.249
a massive amount of police cars.
00:13:26.250 --> 00:13:27.875
And I could also see
00:13:27.876 --> 00:13:30.249
lying in front
of the schoolhouse
00:13:30.250 --> 00:13:31.666
a white sheet,
00:13:31.667 --> 00:13:34.458
and I know that
there is a dead body
00:13:34.459 --> 00:13:37.374
underneath that.
00:13:37.375 --> 00:13:39.374
I was petrified.
00:13:39.375 --> 00:13:42.791
I thought,
\"I can\'t do this.\"
00:13:42.792 --> 00:13:44.583
I knew, as a deputy coroner,
00:13:44.584 --> 00:13:48.250
I was going to see things
that nobody is meant to see.
00:13:49.375 --> 00:13:50.917
The schoolyard looked
00:13:50.918 --> 00:13:53.998
like somebody had taken
several ambulances,
00:13:53.999 --> 00:13:55.875
turned them upside down,
00:13:55.876 --> 00:13:57.875
shook and dumped
all the medical supplies
00:13:57.876 --> 00:14:01.291
out onto the schoolyard.
00:14:01.292 --> 00:14:07.041
There were groups
of Amish people standing,
00:14:07.042 --> 00:14:09.042
sobbing.
00:14:12.125 --> 00:14:15.458
Small Amish children
were standing
00:14:15.459 --> 00:14:21.249
along the side of the road
next to their parents.
00:14:21.250 --> 00:14:23.166
For as many people
that was there,
00:14:23.167 --> 00:14:27.416
it was eerily quiet
in one sense,
00:14:27.417 --> 00:14:29.999
other than the helicopters.
00:14:32.584 --> 00:14:36.542
We went to enter
the schoolhouse.
00:14:38.501 --> 00:14:42.917
The room was indescribable.
00:14:42.918 --> 00:14:45.998
It just was horrific.
00:14:45.999 --> 00:14:50.666
I saw one dead female
lying on the right side,
00:14:50.667 --> 00:14:54.708
and the perpetrator
was lying on the left.
00:14:54.709 --> 00:14:59.291
Both were engulfed in huge pools
of their own blood,
00:14:59.292 --> 00:15:05.208
but there was blood
shattered everywhere.
00:15:05.209 --> 00:15:07.792
Oh, there wasn\'t blood
\"shattered.\"
00:15:13.584 --> 00:15:18.583
- It appears that
the suspect entered the school
00:15:18.584 --> 00:15:20.998
with the intention
of taking hostages.
00:15:20.999 --> 00:15:24.791
Like I said, he came
with 2x6s, 2x4s,
00:15:24.792 --> 00:15:26.333
and these weapons.
00:15:26.334 --> 00:15:30.541
- Then we noticed the containers
with the K-Y Jelly,
00:15:30.542 --> 00:15:34.124
and then we saw the zip ties
and the boards,
00:15:34.125 --> 00:15:38.458
the 2x4s with
the metal bolts in them.
00:15:38.459 --> 00:15:39.666
- He apparently told the kids
00:15:39.667 --> 00:15:44.998
to line up
in front of the blackboard.
00:15:44.999 --> 00:15:46.041
[clears throat]
00:15:46.042 --> 00:15:50.666
At that moment,
he began to tie the females...
00:15:50.667 --> 00:15:53.998
The children\'s feet together.
00:15:53.999 --> 00:15:58.998
- I believe he had planned
to line the girls up
00:15:58.999 --> 00:16:00.708
and sexually molest them
00:16:00.709 --> 00:16:03.917
and then shoot each one of them.
00:16:03.918 --> 00:16:06.541
If there\'s any salvation at all,
00:16:06.542 --> 00:16:07.958
it is the fact that
00:16:07.959 --> 00:16:11.208
he did not get to do
what he\'d planned to do.
00:16:11.209 --> 00:16:15.875
Narrator: The killer,
Charles Roberts, wasn\'t Amish,
00:16:15.876 --> 00:16:17.998
but he lived in the community.
00:16:17.999 --> 00:16:19.998
He was a local milk truck driver
00:16:19.999 --> 00:16:23.833
and occasionally made deliveries
to Amish homes.
00:16:23.834 --> 00:16:26.208
He was married
with three children.
00:16:26.209 --> 00:16:28.998
Nine years earlier,
his firstborn daughter
00:16:28.999 --> 00:16:31.625
died minutes after her birth.
00:16:31.626 --> 00:16:34.416
He brooded over this loss.
00:16:34.417 --> 00:16:38.998
- This young man
is gonna get revenge on God,
00:16:38.999 --> 00:16:43.958
show God how to grieve.
00:16:43.959 --> 00:16:46.124
- I just...
I just don\'t know
00:16:46.125 --> 00:16:48.124
really how to react to it yet.
00:16:48.125 --> 00:16:50.998
It\'s just...
I\'m just, like, in a daze yet,
00:16:50.999 --> 00:16:52.416
trying to figure out, you know,
00:16:52.417 --> 00:16:54.998
what, uh, how we\'re
going to handle this.
00:16:54.999 --> 00:16:56.333
- We can tell people
about Christ
00:16:56.334 --> 00:16:59.998
and actually show you
in our walk
00:16:59.999 --> 00:17:01.124
that we forgive,
00:17:01.125 --> 00:17:03.374
not just say it
but in our walk of life.
00:17:03.375 --> 00:17:08.374
- The community immediately,
immediately,
00:17:08.375 --> 00:17:11.541
announces that they forgive him,
00:17:11.542 --> 00:17:13.958
and these are not just words.
00:17:13.959 --> 00:17:18.541
They go search out his wife
and embrace her
00:17:18.542 --> 00:17:23.958
to accompany her in this moment
of loss and shock for her,
00:17:23.959 --> 00:17:25.998
because she didn\'t know.
00:17:25.999 --> 00:17:29.333
They don\'t sue her
because she should have known.
00:17:29.334 --> 00:17:31.750
They embrace her.
00:17:31.751 --> 00:17:34.709
They become friends.
00:17:37.209 --> 00:17:40.998
- I was flooded with emails
and with letters from Christians
00:17:40.999 --> 00:17:42.998
who wrote that
I had to understand
00:17:42.999 --> 00:17:45.541
that this is what a Christian
is expected to do,
00:17:45.542 --> 00:17:48.750
that God is love
and that we must love everyone.
00:17:48.751 --> 00:17:50.458
And I would write back
to some of them and say,
00:17:50.459 --> 00:17:51.998
\"Are you trying to tell me
00:17:51.999 --> 00:17:55.583
\"that God loves Charles Roberts,
the murderer in this case,
00:17:55.584 --> 00:17:56.998
\"as much as he loves the girl
00:17:56.999 --> 00:17:58.583
\"that he fired 20 bullets into?
00:17:58.584 --> 00:18:00.791
\"Do you really
want me to believe
00:18:00.792 --> 00:18:02.374
\"that the God that you worship
00:18:02.375 --> 00:18:04.374
\"and that the God
who you say is love
00:18:04.375 --> 00:18:06.374
has equal love
for both people?\"
00:18:06.375 --> 00:18:08.166
And they would write back
in many cases and say,
00:18:08.167 --> 00:18:09.791
\"Yes, that\'s exactly
what I mean.\"
00:18:09.792 --> 00:18:10.998
I believe in God,
00:18:10.999 --> 00:18:12.374
but I don\'t believe in a God
00:18:12.375 --> 00:18:14.791
who can\'t distinguish
between a murderer
00:18:14.792 --> 00:18:15.998
and the murder victim.
00:18:15.999 --> 00:18:18.666
[horse hooves clattering]
00:18:18.667 --> 00:18:20.458
- Five young girls are dead.
00:18:20.459 --> 00:18:21.875
- Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania,
00:18:21.876 --> 00:18:23.875
the latest on those
tragic school shootings.
00:18:23.876 --> 00:18:26.458
- People were awed by it
in such a way
00:18:26.459 --> 00:18:29.998
that it survived long after
news stories survive.
00:18:29.999 --> 00:18:32.166
[man speaking French]
00:18:32.167 --> 00:18:33.583
It had traction to it.
00:18:33.584 --> 00:18:35.166
It continues...
And to this day.
00:18:35.167 --> 00:18:37.374
- Dozens of horse-drawn buggies
carried mourners
00:18:37.375 --> 00:18:39.374
to a simple hilltop ceremony
00:18:39.375 --> 00:18:41.998
as four of the five children
who were killed
00:18:41.999 --> 00:18:43.374
were laid to rest.
00:18:43.375 --> 00:18:44.583
Ironically, the procession
00:18:44.584 --> 00:18:46.583
passed by the home
of Charles Roberts.
00:18:46.584 --> 00:18:47.998
- The father
of one of the wounded
00:18:47.999 --> 00:18:49.998
says the oldest girl
in the room said,
00:18:49.999 --> 00:18:52.666
\"Shoot me
and leave the others alone.\"
00:18:52.667 --> 00:18:55.666
The gunman shot her
and nine other young girls.
00:18:55.667 --> 00:18:57.917
- But the Amish are not
calling for revenge.
00:18:57.918 --> 00:19:00.500
Instead, they\'re preaching
something much different:
00:19:00.501 --> 00:19:01.501
forgiveness.
00:19:01.502 --> 00:19:02.708
- An unimaginable crime
00:19:02.709 --> 00:19:04.998
followed by
an inconceivable response.
00:19:04.999 --> 00:19:07.416
- One of the grandfathers
could actually be heard
00:19:07.417 --> 00:19:09.208
instructing
the littlest children
00:19:09.209 --> 00:19:10.998
to forgive the man who killed.
00:19:10.999 --> 00:19:14.208
- It was a lesson in dignity,
forgiveness,
00:19:14.209 --> 00:19:15.833
incredible strength.
00:19:15.834 --> 00:19:17.998
- At one level, I admired that,
00:19:17.999 --> 00:19:20.625
but at a different level,
it really chilled me.
00:19:20.626 --> 00:19:22.500
The Amish can only live that way
00:19:22.501 --> 00:19:24.082
because a few miles
down the road,
00:19:24.083 --> 00:19:25.500
there\'s a police department
00:19:25.501 --> 00:19:27.291
that isn\'t staffed
by Amish people,
00:19:27.292 --> 00:19:29.082
and they\'re not
gonna be so quick to forgive
00:19:29.083 --> 00:19:30.917
when somebody
does something wrong.
00:19:30.918 --> 00:19:32.291
You can survive like that
00:19:32.292 --> 00:19:34.291
when you\'re protected
by a larger society
00:19:34.292 --> 00:19:36.834
that doesn\'t think that way
and that doesn\'t live that way.
00:19:39.042 --> 00:19:42.458
- If you choose to become Amish,
00:19:42.459 --> 00:19:46.249
you agree to give up a lot.
00:19:46.250 --> 00:19:50.249
Individual desires
and even individual feelings
00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:53.998
are frequently sacrificed
to the community.
00:19:53.999 --> 00:19:55.708
You give up a car.
00:19:55.709 --> 00:19:58.500
You give up your right
to dress as you want.
00:19:58.501 --> 00:20:02.500
You give up any possibility
of higher education.
00:20:02.501 --> 00:20:06.750
Forgiveness is a lot
about giving up.
00:20:06.751 --> 00:20:10.791
Forgiveness is about giving up
one\'s right to revenge
00:20:10.792 --> 00:20:12.791
and eventually giving up
00:20:12.792 --> 00:20:17.998
the anger
that one naturally feels.
00:20:17.999 --> 00:20:20.958
So I think that that
can be a danger in Amish life
00:20:20.959 --> 00:20:23.541
and in any community
that values forgiveness
00:20:23.542 --> 00:20:25.708
as highly as what the Amish do,
00:20:25.709 --> 00:20:28.708
that people will feel
compelled and coerced
00:20:28.709 --> 00:20:31.708
to feel things...
To experience something
00:20:31.709 --> 00:20:34.500
that they just don\'t know
how to experience.
00:20:34.501 --> 00:20:36.998
- It\'s been two years now
since the incident,
00:20:36.999 --> 00:20:41.708
and the families
are still grieving.
00:20:41.709 --> 00:20:46.291
The five families whose
girls had died in the incident
00:20:46.292 --> 00:20:49.082
are still very much
grieving this loss,
00:20:49.083 --> 00:20:51.374
and it doesn\'t go away
00:20:51.375 --> 00:20:55.374
just because they forgave
Mr. Roberts and their family.
00:20:55.375 --> 00:20:59.166
- When I first heard
the story about Nickel Mines,
00:20:59.167 --> 00:21:01.791
I responded to it in horror,
00:21:01.792 --> 00:21:04.416
literally, in horror.
00:21:04.417 --> 00:21:08.208
Despite the fact
that I\'ve left the Amish
00:21:08.209 --> 00:21:11.416
and despite the fact
00:21:11.417 --> 00:21:16.208
that I have many reservations
00:21:16.209 --> 00:21:21.833
about things in
the Amish culture and so on,
00:21:21.834 --> 00:21:25.833
my initial reaction
was one of admiration
00:21:25.834 --> 00:21:32.166
that they were able to...
To say, \"I forgive.\"
00:21:32.167 --> 00:21:34.791
And to the extent
that I identified
00:21:34.792 --> 00:21:38.374
with my own Amish roots
and my own Amish community,
00:21:38.375 --> 00:21:40.166
it was a wonderful way
00:21:40.167 --> 00:21:43.374
for me to reflect
on the rich heritage,
00:21:43.375 --> 00:21:46.999
and I wanted to affirm them
for doing it.
00:21:48.834 --> 00:21:53.708
But I have to come back
00:21:53.709 --> 00:21:58.500
to the flip side
of some of these things.
00:21:58.501 --> 00:22:06.082
Every time I read or hear
the Amish saying,
00:22:06.083 --> 00:22:09.291
\"Forgive those
who sinned against you,
00:22:09.292 --> 00:22:11.291
\"for if you do not forgive them,
00:22:11.292 --> 00:22:15.708
neither will your Father
in heaven forgive you,\"
00:22:15.709 --> 00:22:20.917
I say,
\"Hmm, what about that?\"
00:22:20.918 --> 00:22:24.082
Is that really life-giving?
00:22:24.083 --> 00:22:29.082
If I do it
just so that I can find it?
00:22:29.083 --> 00:22:30.083
Maybe so.
00:22:30.084 --> 00:22:31.291
I don\'t want to be too hard,
00:22:31.292 --> 00:22:32.917
but it raises real questions.
00:22:32.918 --> 00:22:36.500
It feels legalistic.
00:22:36.501 --> 00:22:39.708
It feels as though
it\'s not coming from the depths
00:22:39.709 --> 00:22:44.082
but rather
the demands of religion,
00:22:44.083 --> 00:22:47.958
rather than the life
that religion brings.
00:22:47.959 --> 00:22:50.124
- But when something
happens to you,
00:22:50.125 --> 00:22:51.998
when something happens...
00:22:51.999 --> 00:22:55.917
When they kill
your son or daughter,
00:22:55.918 --> 00:22:58.500
what happens then?
00:22:58.501 --> 00:23:00.998
What happens
to the feelings of...
00:23:00.999 --> 00:23:04.998
First of all, of anger?
00:23:04.999 --> 00:23:10.208
Of great loss?
00:23:10.209 --> 00:23:17.208
Of a desire
to reverse time, even?
00:23:17.209 --> 00:23:21.833
Of regret?
If only!
00:23:21.834 --> 00:23:24.625
To the horror of the experience
00:23:24.626 --> 00:23:30.208
of the absence of someone
you loved in a relationship,
00:23:30.209 --> 00:23:32.583
your relation with that person
00:23:32.584 --> 00:23:34.374
who was part of your life.
00:23:34.375 --> 00:23:36.998
Part of your life
has been taken off.
00:23:36.999 --> 00:23:40.166
You are less.
00:23:40.167 --> 00:23:47.374
Can this radical obedience
fulfill those needs?
00:23:47.375 --> 00:23:49.998
I don\'t think so.
00:23:49.999 --> 00:23:53.041
You can only deal with them
00:23:53.042 --> 00:23:58.249
by in some way suppressing them.
00:23:58.250 --> 00:24:00.998
I think that is violence.
00:24:00.999 --> 00:24:06.041
Violence done to yourself
above all.
00:24:06.042 --> 00:24:08.875
- The Jewish response,
as I understand it,
00:24:08.876 --> 00:24:11.458
isn\'t to be so quick to forgive,
00:24:11.459 --> 00:24:16.249
and it isn\'t to be so quick
to spread love around.
00:24:16.250 --> 00:24:20.041
Judaism teaches
that there are times
00:24:20.042 --> 00:24:22.041
when you\'re supposed
to hang on to your anger,
00:24:22.042 --> 00:24:23.458
but even more than that,
00:24:23.459 --> 00:24:25.833
it teaches that forgiveness
has to be earned.
00:24:25.834 --> 00:24:26.998
There\'s no forgiveness
00:24:26.999 --> 00:24:29.833
unless it\'s preceded
by repentance.
00:24:29.834 --> 00:24:31.208
And for that reason,
00:24:31.209 --> 00:24:34.750
I think that murder,
by definition, is unforgivable,
00:24:34.751 --> 00:24:36.333
whether it\'s in Nickel Mines
00:24:36.334 --> 00:24:38.082
or it\'s in
any of these other cases
00:24:38.083 --> 00:24:39.666
where some people\'s
first reaction
00:24:39.667 --> 00:24:41.998
is to say, \"We forgive.\"
00:24:41.999 --> 00:24:43.249
You have no right to forgive.
00:24:43.250 --> 00:24:44.875
You weren\'t the one
who was murdered,
00:24:44.876 --> 00:24:46.958
and the one who was murdered
is no longer here.
00:24:46.959 --> 00:24:48.959
Nobody has that right.
00:24:51.792 --> 00:24:53.791
Narrator: On October 12th,
00:24:53.792 --> 00:24:56.166
almost two weeks
after the shooting,
00:24:56.167 --> 00:25:01.791
late at night, the Amish
demolished the schoolhouse.
00:25:01.792 --> 00:25:03.583
By the time the sun rose,
00:25:03.584 --> 00:25:06.334
all traces of it
had been removed.
00:25:10.876 --> 00:25:14.998
- There was a group of maybe
three or four little Amish boys.
00:25:14.999 --> 00:25:17.416
They were maybe
eight or nine years old,
00:25:17.417 --> 00:25:19.998
and the one boy
said to the other,
00:25:19.999 --> 00:25:23.998
\"You know, they can
take down our school,
00:25:23.999 --> 00:25:26.833
\"and they can take away
our school,
00:25:26.834 --> 00:25:31.416
but they can\'t take away
the things we remember.\"
00:25:31.417 --> 00:25:34.416
And the other one said,
\"You better be quiet.
00:25:34.417 --> 00:25:37.416
\"Don\'t let people
hear you say that.
00:25:37.417 --> 00:25:41.208
We\'re supposed to forgive.\"
00:25:41.209 --> 00:25:44.998
[woman singing]
Slumber, my darling.
00:25:44.999 --> 00:25:49.791
Thy mother is near.
00:25:49.792 --> 00:25:57.792
Guarding thy dreams
from all terror and fear.
00:25:58.042 --> 00:26:02.667
- These Amish people
had each other.
00:26:04.667 --> 00:26:06.998
They had the support
of their neighbors.
00:26:06.999 --> 00:26:09.999
They had the support
of their family.
00:26:12.042 --> 00:26:13.666
But now, what about people
00:26:13.667 --> 00:26:16.666
who don\'t have
that kind of community?
00:26:16.667 --> 00:26:21.998
Or what about people
who don\'t share their beliefs
00:26:21.999 --> 00:26:25.458
in just that kind of god?
00:26:25.459 --> 00:26:27.875
Where do those people go?
00:26:27.876 --> 00:26:31.292
Where do those people
find refuge?
00:26:34.417 --> 00:26:41.291
[woman singing]
While others their revels keep,
00:26:41.292 --> 00:26:47.834
I will watch over thee.
00:26:51.417 --> 00:26:55.416
Slumber, my darling.
00:26:55.417 --> 00:26:59.998
I\'ll wrap thee up warm.
00:26:59.999 --> 00:27:05.625
Pray that the angels
00:27:05.626 --> 00:27:11.834
will shield thee from harm.
00:27:13.125 --> 00:27:16.125
[rain pattering]
00:27:17.834 --> 00:27:20.416
- I think we can only talk
about forgiveness
00:27:20.417 --> 00:27:22.998
and the appropriateness
of forgiveness
00:27:22.999 --> 00:27:27.998
if we also talk
about the existence of evil,
00:27:27.999 --> 00:27:31.208
because if there is evil,
00:27:31.209 --> 00:27:32.998
utter and radical evil,
00:27:32.999 --> 00:27:38.208
then some acts are unforgivable,
00:27:38.209 --> 00:27:43.416
and I do believe
in the existence of evil.
00:27:43.417 --> 00:27:46.625
And I do believe that the crime
00:27:46.626 --> 00:27:48.833
that was perpetrated
against me and my roommate
00:27:48.834 --> 00:27:50.833
is an act of radical evil.
00:27:50.834 --> 00:27:53.041
It was a radical transgression.
00:27:53.042 --> 00:27:56.208
In that time and place,
00:27:56.209 --> 00:27:59.416
in Redmond, Oregon, in 1977,
00:27:59.417 --> 00:28:04.625
nothing of this scale
had ever happened before.
00:28:04.626 --> 00:28:08.999
It was an act that defied
all comprehension.
00:28:11.083 --> 00:28:14.082
One of the reasons
the trauma had remained
00:28:14.083 --> 00:28:17.291
in the collective memory
of that community
00:28:17.292 --> 00:28:18.998
for so many years
00:28:18.999 --> 00:28:21.998
is because
it was so out of bounds
00:28:21.999 --> 00:28:25.082
that people couldn\'t even
tell a story about it.
00:28:25.083 --> 00:28:27.917
It was... it exploded the...
00:28:27.918 --> 00:28:30.998
The usual constructs
of storytelling.
00:28:30.999 --> 00:28:34.416
This event had traumatized
these people
00:28:34.417 --> 00:28:37.834
as deeply as it...
As it had traumatized me.
00:28:40.501 --> 00:28:43.917
- You can never silence trauma.
00:28:43.918 --> 00:28:48.292
The voice of trauma rises up
constantly.
00:28:50.501 --> 00:28:54.998
This story really
captures exactly this idea
00:28:54.999 --> 00:28:58.998
that traumas
cannot be silenced forever.
00:28:58.999 --> 00:29:02.583
They continue to live
in the person\'s,
00:29:02.584 --> 00:29:04.500
in the victims\' lives,
00:29:04.501 --> 00:29:08.041
and anger becomes the vehicle
00:29:08.042 --> 00:29:11.125
through which
the words of trauma are spoken.
00:29:12.792 --> 00:29:16.374
Some people find
the journey of healing
00:29:16.375 --> 00:29:20.166
through the words
of forgiveness.
00:29:20.167 --> 00:29:23.583
For her, the place of healing
00:29:23.584 --> 00:29:26.999
was around the language
of anger.
00:29:32.167 --> 00:29:34.998
- We were sophomores at Yale,
00:29:34.999 --> 00:29:38.833
and in the winter of 1977,
we got this idea
00:29:38.834 --> 00:29:41.833
that we were gonna take
the Bikecentennial trail
00:29:41.834 --> 00:29:44.458
4,200 miles,
coast-to-coast.
00:29:44.459 --> 00:29:47.208
Most people went in big trips,
00:29:47.209 --> 00:29:48.833
and it was, of course,
00:29:48.834 --> 00:29:51.958
a physically challenging
expedition, to say the least.
00:29:51.959 --> 00:29:54.124
The two of us decided
we were going to go alone,
00:29:54.125 --> 00:29:55.458
the two of us,
00:29:55.459 --> 00:29:57.998
and when June came,
we got on the Greyhound bus
00:29:57.999 --> 00:30:00.666
and went out to the West Coast.
00:30:00.667 --> 00:30:02.998
It was absolutely spectacular.
00:30:02.999 --> 00:30:04.750
The mountains were giant.
00:30:04.751 --> 00:30:05.958
Trees were giant.
00:30:05.959 --> 00:30:09.917
I mean, everything
was oversized.
00:30:09.918 --> 00:30:13.416
We traveled up to the top
of the Cascade Mountains
00:30:13.417 --> 00:30:17.625
where there was a tundra
that was just black lava flow.
00:30:17.626 --> 00:30:20.291
We were two girls on bicycles.
00:30:20.292 --> 00:30:22.708
No skin of metal around us,
00:30:22.709 --> 00:30:24.291
open and vulnerable
to the elements
00:30:24.292 --> 00:30:28.708
and to anybody
who might pass by.
00:30:28.709 --> 00:30:29.998
We came down off the mountain,
00:30:29.999 --> 00:30:31.750
found ourselves
on a high desert plateau
00:30:31.751 --> 00:30:34.999
that stretched all the way
to the Midwest.
00:30:37.709 --> 00:30:41.998
We headed to Cline Falls
State Park, a picnic area,
00:30:41.999 --> 00:30:44.082
which was listed in our
Bikecentennial guidebooks
00:30:44.083 --> 00:30:46.918
as a place that
we could stay overnight.
00:30:49.167 --> 00:30:52.249
When we arrived there,
we realized that actually,
00:30:52.250 --> 00:30:54.166
that it was not
an overnight place at all.
00:30:54.167 --> 00:30:55.998
It was only picnicking.
00:30:55.999 --> 00:31:01.500
I made the decision, really,
that we needed to stop.
00:31:01.501 --> 00:31:03.917
My roommate wanted to go on,
00:31:03.918 --> 00:31:07.500
so we had a conflict there.
00:31:07.501 --> 00:31:09.708
There was something
extremely spooky
00:31:09.709 --> 00:31:12.334
about the landscape
and the feeling there.
00:31:14.167 --> 00:31:18.791
We had always had this feeling
that we were being watched.
00:31:18.792 --> 00:31:20.998
As we looked around,
all around us,
00:31:20.999 --> 00:31:25.291
there was nobody
that we could see.
00:31:25.292 --> 00:31:29.709
And we had dinner
and went to bed.
00:31:34.501 --> 00:31:37.082
Not long after
I had been asleep,
00:31:37.083 --> 00:31:42.458
I was awakened
by a very loud sound.
00:31:42.459 --> 00:31:47.416
And then I realized
I\'d been run over by a truck.
00:31:47.417 --> 00:31:49.416
My first impulse was to think,
00:31:49.417 --> 00:31:50.998
\"You dumb asses,\" you know?
00:31:50.999 --> 00:31:52.998
\"Get the hell off of this tent.
00:31:52.999 --> 00:31:54.998
I\'m underneath your truck.\"
00:31:54.999 --> 00:31:58.875
And then
I heard my roommate scream,
00:31:58.876 --> 00:32:00.458
\"Leave us alone.\"
00:32:00.459 --> 00:32:01.998
And then I heard a blow,
00:32:01.999 --> 00:32:04.998
and then my roommate
was completely quiet.
00:32:04.999 --> 00:32:11.791
And I saw above me
a young man standing over me.
00:32:11.792 --> 00:32:13.998
He had an ax in his hand.
00:32:13.999 --> 00:32:15.708
He brought the ax down,
00:32:15.709 --> 00:32:17.998
and oddly enough,
he brought it down slowly,
00:32:17.999 --> 00:32:20.291
in slow-motion.
00:32:20.292 --> 00:32:25.917
I remember that he had
a very lean and neat torso,
00:32:25.918 --> 00:32:29.998
his shirt tucked meticulously
into his pants,
00:32:29.999 --> 00:32:33.917
and I remember thinking,
\"Such an attractive cowboy.
00:32:33.918 --> 00:32:37.625
How could this man
be murdering me?\"
00:32:37.626 --> 00:32:39.625
And I caught the blade
in my hands,
00:32:39.626 --> 00:32:40.833
just above my chest,
00:32:40.834 --> 00:32:43.998
and I looked up at him and said,
00:32:43.999 --> 00:32:45.998
\"Please, leave us alone.
00:32:45.999 --> 00:32:48.791
Take anything,
but leave us alone.\"
00:32:48.792 --> 00:32:51.208
And it seemingly worked,
00:32:51.209 --> 00:32:54.708
because he pulled the ax
out of my hand.
00:32:54.709 --> 00:32:56.082
He stepped over me,
00:32:56.083 --> 00:32:59.918
got back into this truck,
and squealed away.
00:33:02.167 --> 00:33:04.998
I felt myself ebbing away.
00:33:04.999 --> 00:33:08.166
I felt a rush of warmth
filling my body,
00:33:08.167 --> 00:33:10.998
taking me away.
00:33:10.999 --> 00:33:13.998
I could hear the murmuring
of the white water.
00:33:13.999 --> 00:33:16.583
I could hear
the crickets chirping.
00:33:16.584 --> 00:33:18.583
I looked up
into the tree above me
00:33:18.584 --> 00:33:21.583
and saw the outlines
of the leaves,
00:33:21.584 --> 00:33:24.124
and a thought
went through my mind:
00:33:24.125 --> 00:33:26.998
\"This could be any ordinary
cool summer night,
00:33:26.999 --> 00:33:29.166
\"except for the fact
that I\'m lying here
00:33:29.167 --> 00:33:32.541
completely mutilated.\"
00:33:32.542 --> 00:33:35.750
I crawled over to my roommate,
00:33:35.751 --> 00:33:38.750
and I heard this moaning,
00:33:38.751 --> 00:33:43.541
this awful, awful moaning
and kind of a wailing,
00:33:43.542 --> 00:33:46.791
the sound of a wounded animal.
00:33:46.792 --> 00:33:49.998
I put my hand under
the back of her head
00:33:49.999 --> 00:33:53.458
and sought her wound,
00:33:53.459 --> 00:33:55.041
and my hand went right into her,
00:33:55.042 --> 00:33:58.041
through her skull
and into her brain.
00:33:58.042 --> 00:33:59.833
Her brain had been crushed.
00:33:59.834 --> 00:34:03.998
I rallied an extraordinary will
to try to get help.
00:34:03.999 --> 00:34:05.998
[engine rumbling]
00:34:05.999 --> 00:34:07.998
I saw a pair of headlights
00:34:07.999 --> 00:34:11.208
coming around this looped
park road very slowly,
00:34:11.209 --> 00:34:12.833
and I thought,
00:34:12.834 --> 00:34:15.998
\"This could be that same cowboy
00:34:15.999 --> 00:34:17.625
\"coming back to finish us off,
00:34:17.626 --> 00:34:19.998
or it could be help.\"
00:34:19.999 --> 00:34:22.998
- As we were approaching
the turnaround,
00:34:22.999 --> 00:34:27.416
there was this light
waving back and forth,
00:34:27.417 --> 00:34:28.625
and then we stopped,
00:34:28.626 --> 00:34:31.998
and she was just
a bloody, bloody mess,
00:34:31.999 --> 00:34:34.416
like she\'d been swimming
in a pool of blood.
00:34:34.417 --> 00:34:36.541
It was just dripping everywhere.
00:34:36.542 --> 00:34:39.541
- Then they jumped out
of the truck and started...
00:34:39.542 --> 00:34:41.998
And I showed them
where my roommate was.
00:34:41.999 --> 00:34:43.625
- And she\'s even helping,
00:34:43.626 --> 00:34:45.998
and here\'s somebody that
doesn\'t even have a shoulder.
00:34:45.999 --> 00:34:47.374
Her shoulder was run over.
00:34:47.375 --> 00:34:51.166
But her friend was laying
kind of partially in the water,
00:34:51.167 --> 00:34:53.458
and she wasn\'t moving at all.
00:34:53.459 --> 00:34:56.166
But as it turned out,
she did move.
00:34:56.167 --> 00:34:58.583
So we... we grabbed
her immediately
00:34:58.584 --> 00:34:59.875
and put her in the truck.
00:34:59.876 --> 00:35:01.666
- There was no room for me
in the cab of the truck,
00:35:01.667 --> 00:35:03.875
so I crawled in the back,
00:35:03.876 --> 00:35:05.791
and we took off.
00:35:05.792 --> 00:35:09.166
- The call came in
that we had a trauma case,
00:35:09.167 --> 00:35:12.998
that two young women
had been axed,
00:35:12.999 --> 00:35:17.791
not a head injury, not a trauma.
00:35:17.792 --> 00:35:21.583
It was, two women had been axed.
00:35:21.584 --> 00:35:24.998
That word is so descriptive.
00:35:24.999 --> 00:35:26.750
It\'s so palpable.
00:35:26.751 --> 00:35:27.998
- These are innocent girls
00:35:27.999 --> 00:35:30.958
that had ridden their bikes
over the mountain
00:35:30.959 --> 00:35:32.958
to come to our beautiful area,
00:35:32.959 --> 00:35:33.998
and this happens to them.
00:35:33.999 --> 00:35:35.541
Yeah, I did...
Was so angry.
00:35:35.542 --> 00:35:38.208
I said, \"Somebody needs
to get this son of a bitch.\"
00:35:38.209 --> 00:35:41.625
- I was in
the most extraordinary pain,
00:35:41.626 --> 00:35:44.625
both physically and emotionally.
00:35:44.626 --> 00:35:45.626
At the same time.
00:35:45.627 --> 00:35:46.998
I was so worried
about my roommate,
00:35:46.999 --> 00:35:49.500
whom I thought
could possibly die.
00:35:49.501 --> 00:35:52.166
And then finally,
I awoke to the news
00:35:52.167 --> 00:35:56.998
that my roommate
was out of surgery.
00:35:56.999 --> 00:36:00.374
She had lost part of her sight,
00:36:00.375 --> 00:36:04.166
had been partially blinded
by this attack.
00:36:04.167 --> 00:36:07.374
I felt a tremendous sense
of guilt and responsibility,
00:36:07.375 --> 00:36:09.166
because I was the one
00:36:09.167 --> 00:36:11.583
who wanted to stay in that park
that night.
00:36:11.584 --> 00:36:13.833
My roommate would happily
have gone on.
00:36:13.834 --> 00:36:16.833
- Every day,
as I went in to work,
00:36:16.834 --> 00:36:19.124
we asked, \"Who was this?\"
00:36:19.125 --> 00:36:20.750
Expecting an answer,
00:36:20.751 --> 00:36:22.833
and we never...
We didn\'t get an answer.
00:36:22.834 --> 00:36:24.998
- It certainly
opened my eyes to the fact
00:36:24.999 --> 00:36:27.998
that there is true evil
in the world,
00:36:27.999 --> 00:36:31.416
that true evil touched all of us
that night,
00:36:31.417 --> 00:36:34.625
and again,
it came out of the darkness.
00:36:34.626 --> 00:36:36.999
It was just there.
00:36:39.999 --> 00:36:40.999
- Years went on.
00:36:40.999 --> 00:36:41.999
I began to realize
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.791
I wasn\'t exactly
the same person.
00:36:43.792 --> 00:36:46.374
I had a feeling
of stuckness, of paralysis,
00:36:46.375 --> 00:36:47.998
a loss of concentration,
00:36:47.999 --> 00:36:52.249
a seizure of my ordinarily
unflappable will.
00:36:52.250 --> 00:36:54.666
Something was different.
00:36:54.667 --> 00:36:57.876
And with each passing year,
it got worse.
00:37:00.250 --> 00:37:02.998
I was living in New York
in my early 20s,
00:37:02.999 --> 00:37:06.666
fairly soon after
the ax attack had taken place.
00:37:06.667 --> 00:37:09.666
I had these strange
physical fears.
00:37:09.667 --> 00:37:11.998
I began to fear everything.
00:37:11.999 --> 00:37:17.875
My body was afraid
of being crushed by a vehicle.
00:37:17.876 --> 00:37:20.541
I had apocalyptic fears.
00:37:20.542 --> 00:37:23.333
I felt that I had split
00:37:23.334 --> 00:37:28.998
into a kind of
wildly overreacting,
00:37:28.999 --> 00:37:33.791
intensely emotive,
even manic self,
00:37:33.792 --> 00:37:37.166
and then I would
just switch like that
00:37:37.167 --> 00:37:42.998
into a completely numbed out,
deadened version of myself
00:37:42.999 --> 00:37:46.998
that was just kind of asleep,
narcoleptic.
00:37:46.999 --> 00:37:53.998
Some invisible,
hampering paralysis had set in.
00:37:53.999 --> 00:37:58.998
It was as though my ability
to take my destiny in hand
00:37:58.999 --> 00:38:01.708
had been wrested away from me.
00:38:01.709 --> 00:38:04.500
Today I can\'t even relate
00:38:04.501 --> 00:38:08.082
to the passport picture
that was taken in 1982.
00:38:08.083 --> 00:38:09.500
Looking at it now,
00:38:09.501 --> 00:38:13.917
I see the rage that was evident
in my forehead,
00:38:13.918 --> 00:38:17.082
in my peaked eyebrows.
00:38:17.083 --> 00:38:20.998
I wasn\'t aware of the anger
I was carrying.
00:38:20.999 --> 00:38:22.374
Right after the attack happened,
00:38:22.375 --> 00:38:23.958
people, of course,
would want to hear
00:38:23.959 --> 00:38:24.998
what had happened to me,
00:38:24.999 --> 00:38:27.500
and I would like...
I always told the tale
00:38:27.501 --> 00:38:29.708
in as many details as I could,
00:38:29.709 --> 00:38:32.082
and then they would say,
00:38:32.083 --> 00:38:34.458
\"Well, what happened to the guy?
00:38:34.459 --> 00:38:35.459
\"Who attacked you?
00:38:35.459 --> 00:38:36.459
\"What happened?
00:38:36.459 --> 00:38:37.459
Was the crime solved?\"
00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:38.666
And I\'d say,
\"Oh, no.\"
00:38:38.667 --> 00:38:41.458
I didn\'t think much about him.
00:38:41.459 --> 00:38:44.041
Thinking back on it,
00:38:44.042 --> 00:38:47.666
that was a kind of
easy forgiveness
00:38:47.667 --> 00:38:50.416
that I had granted him,
a kind of cheap grace.
00:38:50.417 --> 00:38:54.998
I was very alone
with the memory of that night.
00:38:54.999 --> 00:38:58.124
For my roommate, the loss
of her memory was a gift.
00:38:58.125 --> 00:38:59.998
She moved on, in her own way,
00:38:59.999 --> 00:39:01.541
by being willfully determined
00:39:01.542 --> 00:39:03.333
the trauma would not limit her.
00:39:03.334 --> 00:39:06.124
And she\'s led
a very successful life.
00:39:06.125 --> 00:39:10.416
I had to confront the trauma
in order to be free.
00:39:10.417 --> 00:39:12.416
- Terri told me one day
00:39:12.417 --> 00:39:15.666
that she was thinking
of going back to Oregon
00:39:15.667 --> 00:39:19.249
and trying to find the man
who had attacked her.
00:39:19.250 --> 00:39:21.998
And I felt instantly
00:39:21.999 --> 00:39:25.249
that this is absolutely
what she had to do.
00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:28.541
It was what she had needed to do
for a long time
00:39:28.542 --> 00:39:30.124
to save her life,
00:39:30.125 --> 00:39:35.751
to become free of this mire
that I\'d seen her in.
00:39:37.459 --> 00:39:39.998
- In the fall of 1992, I set out
00:39:39.999 --> 00:39:43.041
to retrieve
the crime investigation
00:39:43.042 --> 00:39:46.124
from the Oregon State Police
in Salem, Oregon.
00:39:46.125 --> 00:39:51.124
I had to find out
the agent of my destruction.
00:39:51.125 --> 00:39:53.958
I began with great trepidation.
00:39:53.959 --> 00:39:55.124
I was afraid.
00:39:55.125 --> 00:39:57.041
I was looking at
00:39:57.042 --> 00:39:58.917
the extraordinarily
beautiful landscape
00:39:58.918 --> 00:40:02.708
through a scrim
of sadness and grief.
00:40:02.709 --> 00:40:05.291
It was an extraordinary
experience
00:40:05.292 --> 00:40:07.708
to feel vaguely remembered
events
00:40:07.709 --> 00:40:12.082
come back into focus
outside the window of the car.
00:40:12.083 --> 00:40:15.500
It was deeply nourishing
in a bizarre way
00:40:15.501 --> 00:40:18.291
to retrace that exact...
00:40:18.292 --> 00:40:20.750
What seems now
like a mythic journey,
00:40:20.751 --> 00:40:23.958
up to the tundra,
through the black lava fields,
00:40:23.959 --> 00:40:27.082
and down into the desert.
00:40:27.083 --> 00:40:29.917
And I remembered feeling
that foreboding
00:40:29.918 --> 00:40:32.998
that had overtaken me
all those many years before
00:40:32.999 --> 00:40:34.500
and was doing the same now,
00:40:34.501 --> 00:40:36.917
because now
the smell of the juniper,
00:40:36.918 --> 00:40:39.917
the sight of the volcanoes
was bringing it all back.
00:40:39.918 --> 00:40:40.998
I was reconnecting
00:40:40.999 --> 00:40:46.917
to that wounded,
injured animal self
00:40:46.918 --> 00:40:50.998
that I had abandoned that night.
00:40:50.999 --> 00:40:53.875
Then the sign came up,
drove down,
00:40:53.876 --> 00:40:55.998
and it was
a remarkable experience.
00:40:55.999 --> 00:40:58.208
I walked voluntarily
to the spot...
00:40:58.209 --> 00:40:59.998
Found it immediately...
00:40:59.999 --> 00:41:01.208
Of where I had been attacked,
00:41:01.209 --> 00:41:02.998
and I instinctively...
00:41:02.999 --> 00:41:06.998
Instinctively, I felt there
was some part of my being,
00:41:06.999 --> 00:41:09.833
some part
of my 19-year-old self
00:41:09.834 --> 00:41:12.998
and certainly my real blood
00:41:12.999 --> 00:41:16.208
had been left behind
in that soil.
00:41:16.209 --> 00:41:19.416
I just instinctively
dropped to my knees
00:41:19.417 --> 00:41:22.998
and laid on the ground,
flat on that spot
00:41:22.999 --> 00:41:28.791
and soaked in that
part of myself that had fled.
00:41:28.792 --> 00:41:30.791
And when I had her back,
00:41:30.792 --> 00:41:31.958
I got up,
00:41:31.959 --> 00:41:35.125
and I walked out of that park
by myself.
00:41:38.417 --> 00:41:39.833
And what I immediately found out
00:41:39.834 --> 00:41:43.625
was that the statute
of limitations on this case
00:41:43.626 --> 00:41:46.208
had expired in 1980,
so there was...
00:41:46.209 --> 00:41:47.249
Yeah, the case was open.
00:41:47.250 --> 00:41:48.541
I was free
to pick up the papers.
00:41:48.542 --> 00:41:49.998
There could be
no prosecution anymore.
00:41:49.999 --> 00:41:51.541
Now, you know,
00:41:51.542 --> 00:41:53.541
I hadn\'t really ever
thought about a prosecution,
00:41:53.542 --> 00:41:55.541
and then suddenly,
I found myself, \"Wait a minute.
00:41:55.542 --> 00:41:56.917
There could be
no prosecution?\"
00:41:56.918 --> 00:41:58.291
This first little piece
00:41:58.292 --> 00:42:00.708
of that anger
that I needed to recover
00:42:00.709 --> 00:42:01.709
started to come up.
00:42:01.710 --> 00:42:02.791
Wait a minute.
00:42:02.792 --> 00:42:03.998
There wasn\'t any justice here?
00:42:03.999 --> 00:42:05.998
That there was still
a man out there
00:42:05.999 --> 00:42:07.416
who was... who was...
00:42:07.417 --> 00:42:09.998
Who was, you know,
had not been held accountable?
00:42:09.999 --> 00:42:11.583
There had been no reckoning
for this?
00:42:11.584 --> 00:42:12.998
Wait a minute.
And it can\'t be ever?
00:42:12.999 --> 00:42:16.541
I started feeling
kind of righteous anger
00:42:16.542 --> 00:42:19.124
about going after the truth
of what had happened.
00:42:19.125 --> 00:42:21.500
It wasn\'t until then
that I came alive.
00:42:21.501 --> 00:42:22.998
As someone
who was nearly murdered,
00:42:22.999 --> 00:42:24.458
I just don\'t feel
like this was ever...
00:42:24.459 --> 00:42:28.249
- I saw this warrior,
this warrior woman,
00:42:28.250 --> 00:42:31.166
who was challenging people that,
00:42:31.167 --> 00:42:33.374
damn it,
she needed some answers,
00:42:33.375 --> 00:42:36.374
and she got them.
00:42:36.375 --> 00:42:37.999
She dug them up.
00:42:40.125 --> 00:42:43.333
- Very early in my pursuit,
in 1994,
00:42:43.334 --> 00:42:47.998
I met a woman who told me
that she believed she knew
00:42:47.999 --> 00:42:51.166
who had committed
the Cline Falls attack.
00:42:51.167 --> 00:42:54.416
It was a local boy,
17-year-old at the time,
00:42:54.417 --> 00:42:57.041
who was well known in town
as a bully,
00:42:57.042 --> 00:42:59.875
a kid... very good-looking
young cowboy
00:42:59.876 --> 00:43:01.249
with a hot temper
00:43:01.250 --> 00:43:05.249
and a reputation
for beating his girlfriend.
00:43:05.250 --> 00:43:07.249
And she told me something
pretty incredible,
00:43:07.250 --> 00:43:10.666
which is that a lot
of the people in the town
00:43:10.667 --> 00:43:12.750
suspected it was him.
00:43:12.751 --> 00:43:14.124
- I was getting my hair done.
00:43:14.125 --> 00:43:15.958
One of the girls said,
00:43:15.959 --> 00:43:17.750
\"I grew up in Redmond.
00:43:17.751 --> 00:43:18.998
We knew who it was.\"
00:43:18.999 --> 00:43:21.917
- A woman that lived
on Cline Falls Road said,
00:43:21.918 --> 00:43:23.708
\"Yes, we live out there,
00:43:23.709 --> 00:43:26.625
\"and we are pretty sure
we know who did this,
00:43:26.626 --> 00:43:29.625
but that\'s never really
gonna be taken care of.\"
00:43:29.626 --> 00:43:34.541
- How could you know who it was
and not tell somebody?
00:43:34.542 --> 00:43:36.500
- The first piece of evidence
that I found
00:43:36.501 --> 00:43:38.249
that connected the suspect
to my crime
00:43:38.250 --> 00:43:41.998
was when I spoke
to his girlfriend, Jeannie.
00:43:41.999 --> 00:43:43.958
He had tried to kill her
the very next day
00:43:43.959 --> 00:43:46.541
after the attack on me
and my roommate at Cline Falls,
00:43:46.542 --> 00:43:49.541
and she had actually
gone down into the park too
00:43:49.542 --> 00:43:51.249
and saw his tire tracks.
00:43:51.250 --> 00:43:53.333
- That was his tire tracks
that were down there,
00:43:53.334 --> 00:43:57.333
and so the following...
I think it was the next Monday,
00:43:57.334 --> 00:43:58.750
my mother and I
went to the police,
00:43:58.751 --> 00:44:00.998
and I reported what I found.
00:44:00.999 --> 00:44:03.708
- And told them, \"Yes,
I think it\'s my boyfriend.
00:44:03.709 --> 00:44:04.998
\"He\'s been...
He beats me up.
00:44:04.999 --> 00:44:06.082
\"He has a violent temper.
00:44:06.083 --> 00:44:07.917
I think he\'s the one
who did it.\"
00:44:07.918 --> 00:44:11.500
And somehow, those records
completely disappeared.
00:44:11.501 --> 00:44:15.708
I drove a lot
of dirt gravel roads.
00:44:15.709 --> 00:44:16.998
And for a number of years,
00:44:16.999 --> 00:44:19.998
I went on
and investigated this kid,
00:44:19.999 --> 00:44:21.998
and I followed him so closely
00:44:21.999 --> 00:44:24.875
and got the police involved
in taking a look at him.
00:44:24.876 --> 00:44:26.041
This man,
00:44:26.042 --> 00:44:29.458
whom I believe attacked
me and my roommate in 1977,
00:44:29.459 --> 00:44:30.998
has consistently denied it,
00:44:30.999 --> 00:44:34.917
and he was never charged
with the crime.
00:44:34.918 --> 00:44:38.708
I also got to know
the malevolence of my suspect.
00:44:38.709 --> 00:44:41.291
And as I began to learn
00:44:41.292 --> 00:44:44.291
about the tortures
of a string of other women
00:44:44.292 --> 00:44:47.082
whose tales I listened to,
00:44:47.083 --> 00:44:53.374
nothing prepared me for
the escalation of his malice
00:44:53.375 --> 00:44:55.583
that I learned about
00:44:55.584 --> 00:44:58.875
when I interviewed
his ex-wife.
00:44:58.876 --> 00:45:00.875
He made her dig her own grave.
00:45:00.876 --> 00:45:03.208
Night after night,
he\'d send her out with a shovel,
00:45:03.209 --> 00:45:06.416
and she\'d be... she\'d be digging
in the dirt her own grave
00:45:06.417 --> 00:45:09.625
where he was gonna
shoot her and leave her.
00:45:09.626 --> 00:45:12.541
He killed
her children\'s animals.
00:45:12.542 --> 00:45:16.124
I know there were moments
00:45:16.125 --> 00:45:19.750
when I felt terrific anger
toward members of the town,
00:45:19.751 --> 00:45:21.958
particularly
this little town of Redmond.
00:45:21.959 --> 00:45:25.750
How could they not
have done anything about this?
00:45:25.751 --> 00:45:28.541
For all the good intentions
of these decent people,
00:45:28.542 --> 00:45:30.541
none of that really added up
00:45:30.542 --> 00:45:34.541
to stepping up to the evil
in their midst.
00:45:34.542 --> 00:45:35.750
Why does this happen?
00:45:35.751 --> 00:45:38.541
I think people
refuse to understand
00:45:38.542 --> 00:45:41.625
the bad news about human nature.
00:45:41.626 --> 00:45:45.208
I believe that people
commit evil deeds sometimes
00:45:45.209 --> 00:45:46.998
for the sheer joy of doing it,
00:45:46.999 --> 00:45:48.625
because they like to do it.
00:45:48.626 --> 00:45:49.998
And I have to say then,
00:45:49.999 --> 00:45:52.583
how can you forgive
an act like that?
00:45:52.584 --> 00:45:54.750
There\'s... it\'s indeed
unforgivable.
00:45:54.751 --> 00:45:57.124
- And what she needs to hear
from us is, we\'re sorry.
00:45:57.125 --> 00:45:58.958
We\'re sorry it happened.
00:45:58.959 --> 00:46:01.124
We\'re sorry
we bred such an animal.
00:46:01.125 --> 00:46:04.958
We\'re very sorry.
00:46:04.959 --> 00:46:07.500
And the people
that really need to tell her
00:46:07.501 --> 00:46:10.500
are the ones that
looked her in the face
00:46:10.501 --> 00:46:12.917
and lied to her.
00:46:12.918 --> 00:46:15.500
I didn\'t ever look her
in the face and lie to her,
00:46:15.501 --> 00:46:18.750
but I\'m still sorry.
00:46:18.751 --> 00:46:23.958
- I felt, yes, a profound
feeling of forgiveness
00:46:23.959 --> 00:46:26.998
of this community,
00:46:26.999 --> 00:46:28.998
because there
was so much struggling,
00:46:28.999 --> 00:46:30.998
just as I had struggled
to come to terms
00:46:30.999 --> 00:46:32.166
with what had happened
00:46:32.167 --> 00:46:35.458
and my own denial for years
and my own inactivity.
00:46:35.459 --> 00:46:36.998
Just as I had done that,
00:46:36.999 --> 00:46:38.458
they were now doing that
with me.
00:46:38.459 --> 00:46:40.416
We were sort of growing
alongside one another,
00:46:40.417 --> 00:46:41.998
and we were all trying
to figure out
00:46:41.999 --> 00:46:46.998
how had we let this
egregious attack go unanswered?
00:46:46.999 --> 00:46:50.583
Finally, he got caught in 1997
00:46:50.584 --> 00:46:54.082
for a crime he committed
against his hunting partner.
00:46:54.083 --> 00:46:57.082
I was very eager to see him
00:46:57.083 --> 00:46:59.500
finally be held accountable
for something,
00:46:59.501 --> 00:47:02.500
and so I attended that trial.
00:47:02.501 --> 00:47:05.082
And the jury did convict him,
00:47:05.083 --> 00:47:08.082
and he went down for four years.
00:47:08.083 --> 00:47:12.249
It was a form of justice,
if not for me,
00:47:12.250 --> 00:47:13.458
but collectively,
00:47:13.459 --> 00:47:15.998
which started to become
more important
00:47:15.999 --> 00:47:18.208
than my own personal justice.
00:47:18.209 --> 00:47:23.208
I decided to go public
at a certain point.
00:47:23.209 --> 00:47:25.208
And although it was very scary,
00:47:25.209 --> 00:47:27.666
it was vitally important
that I do that.
00:47:27.667 --> 00:47:30.998
It came in a grander form
when my book came out.
00:47:30.999 --> 00:47:34.458
By giving this crime
to the public,
00:47:34.459 --> 00:47:39.458
it, in a way, released me
from holding it all myself.
00:47:39.459 --> 00:47:41.458
Could I ever
under any circumstances
00:47:41.459 --> 00:47:43.249
forgive this man?
00:47:43.250 --> 00:47:47.249
I wonder if life is long enough
00:47:47.250 --> 00:47:49.458
to atone for the crimes
that he has done.
00:47:49.459 --> 00:47:50.998
In this case, I would say no.
00:47:50.999 --> 00:47:52.166
A single lifetime,
00:47:52.167 --> 00:47:53.998
the years he has left
on the planet,
00:47:53.999 --> 00:47:55.500
would not be enough.
00:47:55.501 --> 00:48:00.708
- The anger and hurt
at not being acknowledged
00:48:00.709 --> 00:48:04.083
is a very, very deep one.
00:48:07.501 --> 00:48:10.917
When it is being withheld
00:48:10.918 --> 00:48:16.917
by the person that you know
did this to you,
00:48:16.918 --> 00:48:18.917
then you are forced
to exist in a world
00:48:18.918 --> 00:48:25.291
where a lie
is allowed to flourish,
00:48:25.292 --> 00:48:30.500
if only in this man\'s own mind.
00:48:30.501 --> 00:48:37.291
And I think that\'s why
this still causes Terri pain.
00:48:37.292 --> 00:48:41.124
I think it is almost
an eradication of the self
00:48:41.125 --> 00:48:48.041
to forgive
that level of... evil.
00:48:48.042 --> 00:48:49.666
- Forgiveness mode
00:48:49.667 --> 00:48:53.124
was the mode that rendered me
inactive for so many years.
00:48:53.125 --> 00:48:55.998
That\'s the one I had gone
into by default,
00:48:55.999 --> 00:48:57.917
because that was my training
00:48:57.918 --> 00:49:01.750
that I had picked up
from various religious pursuits,
00:49:01.751 --> 00:49:04.750
but in my case,
an easy forgiveness,
00:49:04.751 --> 00:49:09.124
this cheap grace
that I had afforded myself
00:49:09.125 --> 00:49:11.998
was was tremendously
detrimental,
00:49:11.999 --> 00:49:14.998
because it had left me with
this legacy of powerlessness,
00:49:14.999 --> 00:49:17.998
of an inability to take...
To resume my will,
00:49:17.999 --> 00:49:21.750
with an inability
to acknowledge my anger,
00:49:21.751 --> 00:49:27.917
with allowing injustice
to continue in this community.
00:49:27.918 --> 00:49:32.500
- Even as she says,
\"I never forgave this man\"...
00:49:32.501 --> 00:49:34.998
In fact, he never asked
for forgiveness...
00:49:34.999 --> 00:49:37.333
There is an expression already
00:49:37.334 --> 00:49:41.333
of a kind of forgiveness
with the community.
00:49:41.334 --> 00:49:44.333
They, in other words,
represented the perpetrator,
00:49:44.334 --> 00:49:47.998
even though he himself
did not ask forgiveness.
00:49:47.999 --> 00:49:49.708
When she left the town,
00:49:49.709 --> 00:49:52.500
the reflection by the community
00:49:52.501 --> 00:49:56.291
helped it to transcend
that place of helplessness
00:49:56.292 --> 00:49:59.917
and powerlessness and death.
00:49:59.918 --> 00:50:02.082
And that place of transcendence,
00:50:02.083 --> 00:50:07.998
transcending a trauma,
connecting to the community,
00:50:07.999 --> 00:50:14.374
that space that is created
with feelings of recognition
00:50:14.375 --> 00:50:16.166
of the others\' humanity
00:50:16.167 --> 00:50:19.374
is what forgiveness is about.
00:50:19.375 --> 00:50:23.501
It\'s the opening up
of something new.
00:50:38.792 --> 00:50:41.583
Narrator: Not forgiving
is a choice.
00:50:41.584 --> 00:50:44.998
It can be an honorable one
that brings clarity,
00:50:44.999 --> 00:50:49.583
especially if anger
is acknowledged and not denied.
00:50:49.584 --> 00:50:51.166
- I think sometimes
it\'s important
00:50:51.167 --> 00:50:52.998
for people to realize that
00:50:52.999 --> 00:50:58.500
sometimes the things that we do
reverberate forever.
00:50:58.501 --> 00:51:01.998
What we do and what the result
of what we do is,
00:51:01.999 --> 00:51:04.918
they have a lifelong impact.
00:51:07.999 --> 00:51:09.998
What happened to my father,
00:51:09.999 --> 00:51:11.625
he was murdered.
00:51:11.626 --> 00:51:14.626
Very simply, he was murdered.
00:51:16.918 --> 00:51:18.583
My father and his two brothers
00:51:18.584 --> 00:51:21.124
were all Boston police officers.
00:51:21.125 --> 00:51:27.998
They were all police officers
in the same police department.
00:51:27.999 --> 00:51:30.750
It\'s 38 years ago today
that the bank robbery occurred
00:51:30.751 --> 00:51:32.791
and that my father was shot.
00:51:32.792 --> 00:51:36.998
And I was... I was a senior
in high school.
00:51:36.999 --> 00:51:40.998
I think probably
my graduation from college
00:51:40.999 --> 00:51:44.833
would have been
a pretty momentous occasion
00:51:44.834 --> 00:51:46.082
for my father.
00:51:46.083 --> 00:51:51.374
I-I... yeah...
00:51:51.375 --> 00:51:57.998
I think for both of us,
it would have been
00:51:57.999 --> 00:52:00.999
a shared moment
of accomplishment.
00:52:05.999 --> 00:52:08.208
I think it...
00:52:08.209 --> 00:52:12.998
From my perspective,
00:52:12.999 --> 00:52:15.374
I think it would have been
a great...
00:52:15.375 --> 00:52:17.374
I think it would have been
a moment of achievement
00:52:17.375 --> 00:52:19.998
that my father
would have appreciated.
00:52:19.999 --> 00:52:22.166
And I think for him,
00:52:22.167 --> 00:52:25.374
it would have
kind of been a milestone
00:52:25.375 --> 00:52:28.583
in terms of him being a parent
00:52:28.584 --> 00:52:31.458
and his ability, you know,
to raise his children
00:52:31.459 --> 00:52:34.666
and to afford them opportunity.
00:52:34.667 --> 00:52:36.249
And so I think it would have had
00:52:36.250 --> 00:52:38.959
a lot of significance
for the both of us.
00:52:40.334 --> 00:52:46.249
I think that there\'s
always that, \"Gee, I wish.\"
00:52:46.250 --> 00:52:49.876
I wish Dad could have seen this.
00:53:01.626 --> 00:53:03.834
But he didn\'t.
00:53:12.209 --> 00:53:14.833
Narrator:
Atonement is also a choice,
00:53:14.834 --> 00:53:16.998
and it can last a lifetime.
00:53:16.999 --> 00:53:18.998
It, too, can bring clarity
00:53:18.999 --> 00:53:22.625
but not necessarily forgiveness.
00:53:22.626 --> 00:53:25.998
- I tore something
that will never be untorn.
00:53:25.999 --> 00:53:32.833
Walter Schroeder died young,
00:53:32.834 --> 00:53:37.998
and that doesn\'t go away,
no matter what I do.
00:53:37.999 --> 00:53:41.998
It lives with me.
00:53:41.999 --> 00:53:43.998
I wanted forgiveness.
00:53:43.999 --> 00:53:48.500
I wanted to earn forgiveness.
00:53:48.501 --> 00:53:50.708
And I wanted
to receive forgiveness.
00:53:50.709 --> 00:53:53.374
I wanted to do what I had to do
00:53:53.375 --> 00:53:55.583
so that forgiveness
would be offered to me
00:53:55.584 --> 00:53:58.998
and I could receive it.
00:53:58.999 --> 00:54:01.998
- We begin tonight with
an extraordinary tale
00:54:01.999 --> 00:54:03.583
of murder, suspense,
00:54:03.584 --> 00:54:06.250
and a 23-year-old mystery
that was solved today.
00:54:07.918 --> 00:54:10.583
Narrator: One of America\'s
ten most wanted criminals,
00:54:10.584 --> 00:54:14.374
Katherine Ann Power,
had given herself up.
00:54:14.375 --> 00:54:18.583
She had escaped capture
for 23 years.
00:54:18.584 --> 00:54:21.249
A fierce opponent
of the Vietnam War,
00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:24.917
she had participated
in a violent act of protest,
00:54:24.918 --> 00:54:29.708
a bank robbery
in which a policeman was killed.
00:54:29.709 --> 00:54:33.750
- I was stunned
at the national media attention.
00:54:33.751 --> 00:54:35.998
I was stunned
to see her smiling face
00:54:35.999 --> 00:54:37.998
on the cover
of Newsweek magazine.
00:54:37.999 --> 00:54:42.374
When I read the article
about Katherine Power
00:54:42.375 --> 00:54:47.166
and a nameless, faceless
police officer who was killed,
00:54:47.167 --> 00:54:48.998
my father...
00:54:48.999 --> 00:54:52.998
Oh, God, The New York Times,
The Washington Post... every...
00:54:52.999 --> 00:54:57.041
And that one of the heroes
of the radical movement,
00:54:57.042 --> 00:54:58.998
the heroes of the antiwar
movement, you know,
00:54:58.999 --> 00:55:00.249
has come forward to...
00:55:00.250 --> 00:55:02.374
Almost like to claim her throne.
00:55:02.375 --> 00:55:04.998
- I remember
being in the courtroom,
00:55:04.999 --> 00:55:07.998
and the thing
that caught my attention was,
00:55:07.999 --> 00:55:09.625
she was no longer a radical.
00:55:09.626 --> 00:55:10.998
She was a homemaker.
00:55:10.999 --> 00:55:12.208
She was a wife, you know?
00:55:12.209 --> 00:55:13.625
She was a mother.
00:55:13.626 --> 00:55:18.625
I wasn\'t prepared
for her husband and her child.
00:55:18.626 --> 00:55:21.583
- I didn\'t surrender
00:55:21.584 --> 00:55:24.791
because I knew that I had to go
00:55:24.792 --> 00:55:28.583
and answer for the death
of Walter Schroeder.
00:55:28.584 --> 00:55:31.791
My son was growing up
with no family,
00:55:31.792 --> 00:55:35.998
and I knew that was not right.
00:55:35.999 --> 00:55:39.917
I knew that I couldn\'t
be a good parent to him
00:55:39.918 --> 00:55:42.666
if I couldn\'t tell him
the story of my life.
00:55:42.667 --> 00:55:43.998
[gavel tapping]
00:55:43.999 --> 00:55:47.998
- Officer Schroeder proceeded
to go toward the front door.
00:55:47.999 --> 00:55:54.374
- I still had so much defiance
at the arraignment.
00:55:54.375 --> 00:55:58.791
I still had all of the anger
that wanted to say,
00:55:58.792 --> 00:56:01.374
\"Okay, so when are the generals
and the politicians
00:56:01.375 --> 00:56:03.583
going to show up?\"
00:56:03.584 --> 00:56:06.998
- What I heard was,
\"Yes, I was there.
00:56:06.999 --> 00:56:08.875
\"Yes, I did this.
00:56:08.876 --> 00:56:11.875
\"No, I never thought somebody
was going to get hurt,
00:56:11.876 --> 00:56:15.082
and my life\'s been
really difficult since then.\"
00:56:15.083 --> 00:56:19.082
- What people
who had been wronged saw
00:56:19.083 --> 00:56:22.291
was a really incomplete
statement
00:56:22.292 --> 00:56:28.082
that didn\'t express
genuine remorse,
00:56:28.083 --> 00:56:34.083
because I didn\'t see
the harm that it had caused.
00:56:35.834 --> 00:56:41.833
For the really deep work
that I had to do as a penitent
00:56:41.834 --> 00:56:46.998
was to keep peeling back
these layers of defensiveness,
00:56:46.999 --> 00:56:51.708
the fearfulness
that I would be unforgivable.
00:56:51.709 --> 00:56:53.708
Narrator: Kathy Power\'s
penitential journey
00:56:53.709 --> 00:56:55.666
would take years,
00:56:55.667 --> 00:56:59.918
longer than she ever imagined.
00:57:02.584 --> 00:57:04.374
- I was the third child
00:57:04.375 --> 00:57:08.583
but oldest girl
in a family of seven.
00:57:08.584 --> 00:57:15.208
And I was also sort of
the darling of my father.
00:57:15.209 --> 00:57:17.998
I was smart, articulate,
00:57:17.999 --> 00:57:22.625
and really a high performer,
high achiever.
00:57:22.626 --> 00:57:25.833
And growing up in Colorado,
00:57:25.834 --> 00:57:28.998
they\'d have
the state history contest,
00:57:28.999 --> 00:57:30.291
so I won the medal.
00:57:30.292 --> 00:57:32.291
And then they had
the Betty Crocker contest,
00:57:32.292 --> 00:57:33.998
and so, of course, you know,
00:57:33.999 --> 00:57:36.625
I won the Betty Crocker award.
00:57:36.626 --> 00:57:38.998
Narrator:
In the fall of 1967,
00:57:38.999 --> 00:57:41.625
Kathy Power,
the class valedictorian
00:57:41.626 --> 00:57:43.833
from a strict Catholic family,
00:57:43.834 --> 00:57:46.791
arrived at Brandeis University.
00:57:46.792 --> 00:57:48.791
It was another world.
00:57:48.792 --> 00:57:49.998
Brandeis was the headquarters
00:57:49.999 --> 00:57:52.791
of the National Student
Strike Force,
00:57:52.792 --> 00:57:55.374
which organized protests
against the Vietnam War
00:57:55.375 --> 00:57:57.583
across the country.
00:57:57.584 --> 00:58:00.791
Some of these demonstrations
turned ugly.
00:58:00.792 --> 00:58:03.374
More than 400 colleges
and universities
00:58:03.375 --> 00:58:06.998
erupted in protest
and were closed down.
00:58:06.999 --> 00:58:08.998
The war was widening.
00:58:08.999 --> 00:58:11.249
The news came out
that President Nixon
00:58:11.250 --> 00:58:13.458
had been secretly bombing
Cambodia
00:58:13.459 --> 00:58:17.666
while publicly denying it.
00:58:17.667 --> 00:58:21.249
- We almost split this country
apart in the late \'60s
00:58:21.250 --> 00:58:22.998
over this war.
00:58:22.999 --> 00:58:26.249
We had guns that were trained
against our own young people
00:58:26.250 --> 00:58:28.583
who were protesting the war.
00:58:28.584 --> 00:58:30.374
And in the Kent State incident,
00:58:30.375 --> 00:58:33.791
for example, four of them
were actually killed.
00:58:33.792 --> 00:58:35.998
- The war defined
all of the lives of young people
00:58:35.999 --> 00:58:36.999
at that time.
00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:40.208
Anybody under the age of 26
and was male
00:58:40.209 --> 00:58:42.998
was automatically exposed
00:58:42.999 --> 00:58:44.998
to having to go there
and fight it,
00:58:44.999 --> 00:58:48.833
and it was the predominant
national issue.
00:58:48.834 --> 00:58:51.541
We were killing people
by the busloads
00:58:51.542 --> 00:58:53.998
out in Southeast Asia,
and nobody could avoid it.
00:58:53.999 --> 00:58:55.333
I mean, in the end,
00:58:55.334 --> 00:58:57.124
there were more than 2 million
of them that died.
00:58:57.125 --> 00:59:00.541
- And so there was this
kind of panicky... panicky sense.
00:59:00.542 --> 00:59:02.708
Things were getting worse
by the day, you know?
00:59:02.709 --> 00:59:04.833
Every day you wait
is a day that\'s wasted.
00:59:04.834 --> 00:59:06.833
- The world was on fire.
00:59:06.834 --> 00:59:10.998
I mean, literally,
Vietnam was on fire.
00:59:10.999 --> 00:59:12.998
- Society seemed
to be just trembling.
00:59:12.999 --> 00:59:15.875
It seemed at that moment
to be just shivering
00:59:15.876 --> 00:59:17.875
as if it was about
to fall into pieces.
00:59:17.876 --> 00:59:20.249
- We were dealing
with an atrocity,
00:59:20.250 --> 00:59:23.082
and we were enraged.
00:59:23.083 --> 00:59:24.708
The \"enraged\" was appropriate.
00:59:24.709 --> 00:59:25.917
It\'s what we did,
00:59:25.918 --> 00:59:27.708
what we were going to do
with that
00:59:27.709 --> 00:59:28.998
that became problematic.
00:59:28.999 --> 00:59:30.625
- I had to do something
00:59:30.626 --> 00:59:33.998
with my whole life
about this war,
00:59:33.999 --> 00:59:38.998
and I had to figure out
what it was
00:59:38.999 --> 00:59:41.082
and have the courage to do it.
00:59:41.083 --> 00:59:42.500
Narrator: Brandeis
00:59:42.501 --> 00:59:44.708
was one of the universities
in the Boston area
00:59:44.709 --> 00:59:47.917
that sponsored
an experimental parole program,
00:59:47.918 --> 00:59:50.500
allowing convicts
a chance to leave prison
00:59:50.501 --> 00:59:52.917
and receive a college education.
00:59:52.918 --> 00:59:55.082
It was through this program
00:59:55.083 --> 00:59:58.998
that Kathy met Stanley Bond
and two other ex-convicts:
00:59:58.999 --> 01:00:01.998
Robert Valeri
and William Gilday.
01:00:01.999 --> 01:00:04.917
Stanley Bond was 25 years old,
01:00:04.918 --> 01:00:06.708
a former Vietnam veteran
01:00:06.709 --> 01:00:11.082
with brooding charisma
and a history of crime.
01:00:11.083 --> 01:00:13.082
- He approached me
on the Brandeis campus
01:00:13.083 --> 01:00:16.291
and said, \"I\'ve heard
that you want to do something
01:00:16.292 --> 01:00:19.082
more active against the war.\"
01:00:19.083 --> 01:00:20.374
And I said, \"Yes, I do.\"
01:00:20.375 --> 01:00:22.583
And he said,
\"Well, I\'m putting together...
01:00:22.584 --> 01:00:24.374
\"I\'m trying to put together
a group of people
01:00:24.375 --> 01:00:29.124
who will be
a revolutionary cadre.\"
01:00:29.125 --> 01:00:30.750
I said yes
01:00:30.751 --> 01:00:34.124
because I felt like
here was my chance
01:00:34.125 --> 01:00:35.958
to connect with somebody
01:00:35.959 --> 01:00:38.998
who could teach me how to do
01:00:38.999 --> 01:00:41.998
these sort of
low levels of sabotage
01:00:41.999 --> 01:00:44.333
to make the war stop.
01:00:44.334 --> 01:00:47.124
Again, I want
to emphasize the danger
01:00:47.125 --> 01:00:50.541
of stepping into a closed group,
01:00:50.542 --> 01:00:53.458
because you don\'t think
critically anymore.
01:00:53.459 --> 01:00:57.666
And I stepped into that
and said, \"Yes.\"
01:00:57.667 --> 01:01:00.041
- Not only was this
self-proclaimed revolution
01:01:00.042 --> 01:01:01.249
delusional;
01:01:01.250 --> 01:01:03.249
it was destructive.
01:01:03.250 --> 01:01:05.458
There were millions
of Americans out there
01:01:05.459 --> 01:01:07.041
who were decent, thinking people
01:01:07.042 --> 01:01:08.666
who supported the war.
01:01:08.667 --> 01:01:11.998
Our task in the antiwar movement
was to reach those people
01:01:11.999 --> 01:01:13.750
and to change their minds,
01:01:13.751 --> 01:01:16.124
which we had been doing
successfully
01:01:16.125 --> 01:01:19.958
for five years
leading up to 1969.
01:01:19.959 --> 01:01:21.998
And I looked upon this group
01:01:21.999 --> 01:01:24.998
of maybe two dozen
or three dozen people
01:01:24.999 --> 01:01:28.958
who had self-proclaimed
revolution on their minds
01:01:28.959 --> 01:01:30.333
as a slander against
01:01:30.334 --> 01:01:33.124
what the rest of us
were trying to do.
01:01:33.125 --> 01:01:40.708
- The idea that we were at war
was widespread.
01:01:40.709 --> 01:01:44.998
The next thing to do in that war
01:01:44.999 --> 01:01:49.291
was to rob a bank,
liberate funds.
01:01:49.292 --> 01:01:54.998
The only violent outcome
that I projected
01:01:54.999 --> 01:01:57.999
was that I would die.
01:01:59.876 --> 01:02:03.666
I remember
that the plan was that
01:02:03.667 --> 01:02:05.458
three of the group members
01:02:05.459 --> 01:02:12.041
were going to go
into a bank in Brighton
01:02:12.042 --> 01:02:13.458
and rob it
01:02:13.459 --> 01:02:16.124
and leave that bank
in a stolen car,
01:02:16.125 --> 01:02:18.998
and that they were going
to rendezvous with me
01:02:18.999 --> 01:02:22.998
in another car
about 1/2 mile away.
01:02:22.999 --> 01:02:24.166
[sirens wailing]
01:02:24.167 --> 01:02:25.791
narrator: In fact,
the bank robbery
01:02:25.792 --> 01:02:27.998
had gone tragically awry.
01:02:27.999 --> 01:02:30.791
A few minutes after
Susan Saxe, Robert Valeri,
01:02:30.792 --> 01:02:32.998
and Stanley Bond
had robbed the bank
01:02:32.999 --> 01:02:35.166
and driven off to meet Kathy,
01:02:35.167 --> 01:02:37.791
Officer Walter Schroeder
and his partner
01:02:37.792 --> 01:02:40.458
arrived at the bank.
01:02:40.459 --> 01:02:42.041
William Gilday,
01:02:42.042 --> 01:02:44.875
who was sitting in his car
across the street,
01:02:44.876 --> 01:02:49.998
inexplicably sprayed 30 rounds
from a submachine gun.
01:02:49.999 --> 01:02:53.875
Walter Schroeder
was hit in the back
01:02:53.876 --> 01:02:56.458
as he ran for cover.
01:02:56.459 --> 01:02:59.458
- I have a memory
of washing pots and pans
01:02:59.459 --> 01:03:01.875
and heard
on the transistor radio
01:03:01.876 --> 01:03:08.458
that a police officer
had been shot at
01:03:08.459 --> 01:03:11.917
in this bank robbery.
01:03:11.918 --> 01:03:14.833
[sighs]
01:03:14.834 --> 01:03:16.208
[helicopter rotors whirring]
01:03:16.209 --> 01:03:18.583
narrator: The Boston police
swarmed over the crime scene,
01:03:18.584 --> 01:03:21.833
set up a dragnet statewide.
01:03:21.834 --> 01:03:22.998
Within 24 hours,
01:03:22.999 --> 01:03:24.416
they had discovered
the apartment
01:03:24.417 --> 01:03:25.998
rented under Kathy\'s name.
01:03:25.999 --> 01:03:28.998
It was filled with
rifles, ammunition boxes,
01:03:28.999 --> 01:03:30.917
blasting caps,
01:03:30.918 --> 01:03:34.416
most of them stolen from
the local National Guard armory.
01:03:34.417 --> 01:03:36.998
Within a week,
the three men were caught,
01:03:36.999 --> 01:03:39.208
but the women escaped.
01:03:39.209 --> 01:03:42.791
Susan Saxe was later arrested
in Philadelphia.
01:03:42.792 --> 01:03:44.998
Following the shooting,
01:03:44.999 --> 01:03:47.166
Officer Schroeder
was rushed to the hospital
01:03:47.167 --> 01:03:48.998
and went into surgery.
01:03:48.999 --> 01:03:51.166
He had been shot in the heart.
01:03:51.167 --> 01:03:54.041
His aorta was destroyed.
01:03:54.042 --> 01:03:57.249
220 people lined up
in the hallways
01:03:57.250 --> 01:03:59.666
to donate blood.
01:03:59.667 --> 01:04:02.666
The next day, he died.
01:04:02.667 --> 01:04:04.249
[bagpipes playing]
01:04:04.250 --> 01:04:06.249
- I remember the church
just being packed,
01:04:06.250 --> 01:04:08.833
full of people,
and people outside.
01:04:08.834 --> 01:04:10.416
If you stood on the church steps
01:04:10.417 --> 01:04:11.917
and looked at the street
outside,
01:04:11.918 --> 01:04:14.998
it was just a sea of blue.
01:04:14.999 --> 01:04:17.708
- Face!
01:04:17.709 --> 01:04:19.708
- As far as you could see
in every direction
01:04:19.709 --> 01:04:23.374
were just police officers.
01:04:23.375 --> 01:04:25.374
On the day that my father died,
01:04:25.375 --> 01:04:26.998
my mother had nine children,
01:04:26.999 --> 01:04:28.625
the youngest of whom
was 11 months old.
01:04:28.626 --> 01:04:29.958
She had a...
01:04:29.959 --> 01:04:31.998
So essentially, a one-year-old,
a three-year-old,
01:04:31.999 --> 01:04:33.708
a five-year-old,
a seven-year-old.
01:04:33.709 --> 01:04:35.458
So there was a lot of concern.
01:04:35.459 --> 01:04:39.875
What\'s going to happen?
01:04:39.876 --> 01:04:41.666
- I think
the survival part of me
01:04:41.667 --> 01:04:45.249
just pushed that aside
01:04:45.250 --> 01:04:50.875
into a place where
I wouldn\'t look at it
01:04:50.876 --> 01:04:53.998
for a really long time,
01:04:53.999 --> 01:04:59.750
because when I finally
ever looked at it,
01:04:59.751 --> 01:05:01.750
I didn\'t know
how I could continue
01:05:01.751 --> 01:05:04.999
to think of myself
as a human being.
01:05:06.834 --> 01:05:10.374
I spent the next
23 years of my life
01:05:10.375 --> 01:05:14.374
with a divided awareness
01:05:14.375 --> 01:05:21.500
that, on the one hand,
I was monster,
01:05:21.501 --> 01:05:26.500
and on the other hand,
I was going to live.
01:05:26.501 --> 01:05:31.082
Running away meant
driving a car out of town,
01:05:31.083 --> 01:05:32.708
getting on an airplane,
01:05:32.709 --> 01:05:34.917
getting on a train,
01:05:34.918 --> 01:05:35.998
cutting off my hair,
01:05:35.999 --> 01:05:37.998
buying different pairs
of glasses,
01:05:37.999 --> 01:05:39.458
coloring my hair.
01:05:39.459 --> 01:05:41.875
Living in terror,
01:05:41.876 --> 01:05:44.041
trying to do the next thing,
01:05:44.042 --> 01:05:45.998
which is... I don\'t know...
You get an apartment.
01:05:45.999 --> 01:05:47.041
You get a job.
01:05:47.042 --> 01:05:51.416
And none of what
you tell anybody is true.
01:05:51.417 --> 01:05:53.998
I didn\'t see my family.
01:05:53.999 --> 01:05:56.998
I mean, I would, like,
go to libraries
01:05:56.999 --> 01:05:58.833
and check the phone books,
01:05:58.834 --> 01:06:00.708
and they would still be listed.
01:06:00.709 --> 01:06:05.083
And I suffered
more bouts of depression.
01:06:09.542 --> 01:06:11.750
I moved to Oregon,
01:06:11.751 --> 01:06:14.333
and I had
a social security number
01:06:14.334 --> 01:06:17.124
that I could get a job
01:06:17.125 --> 01:06:18.875
and stay in one community
01:06:18.876 --> 01:06:21.666
for, like, uninterrupted
amount of time
01:06:21.667 --> 01:06:26.999
and form relationships
and make a life.
01:06:30.042 --> 01:06:32.998
Narrator: Kathy changes her name
to Alice Metzinger,
01:06:32.999 --> 01:06:35.291
starts a successful restaurant,
01:06:35.292 --> 01:06:38.708
and wins a culinary prize
as the chef of the year.
01:06:38.709 --> 01:06:40.291
She becomes a family woman
01:06:40.292 --> 01:06:42.917
and an active member
of her community.
01:06:42.918 --> 01:06:46.291
- This life that I was living,
01:06:46.292 --> 01:06:48.291
it wasn\'t sustainable,
01:06:48.292 --> 01:06:51.374
even though it looked
pretty ordinary
01:06:51.375 --> 01:06:53.791
and pretty successful.
01:06:53.792 --> 01:06:57.998
This shame dragging me down,
01:06:57.999 --> 01:07:02.998
this shame made me feel
like I didn\'t deserve to live.
01:07:02.999 --> 01:07:05.374
I didn\'t deserve the good things
01:07:05.375 --> 01:07:09.791
that came from working
at my restaurant.
01:07:09.792 --> 01:07:11.791
I didn\'t deserve the good things
01:07:11.792 --> 01:07:19.166
that came from
building a family life.
01:07:19.167 --> 01:07:24.833
I felt that I deserved nothing.
01:07:24.834 --> 01:07:32.208
So I knew
that I had to surrender.
01:07:32.209 --> 01:07:34.416
- I know that
she struggled with this:
01:07:34.417 --> 01:07:38.416
\"How can I leave my son
and my partner, Ron,
01:07:38.417 --> 01:07:41.124
because of what I need?\"
01:07:41.125 --> 01:07:43.333
But this is not an \"I need\"
01:07:43.334 --> 01:07:45.998
that is at a shallow level.
01:07:45.999 --> 01:07:47.750
This is at the deepest
possible level.
01:07:47.751 --> 01:07:49.750
I think Kathy
knew that she needed
01:07:49.751 --> 01:07:55.625
to do this repentance work
and public confession
01:07:55.626 --> 01:07:56.998
and to do the right thing,
01:07:56.999 --> 01:07:59.124
because she wasn\'t
going to survive otherwise.
01:07:59.125 --> 01:08:01.124
- William Morrow Gilday...
01:08:01.125 --> 01:08:06.875
- I had prepared
a statement for my surrender
01:08:06.876 --> 01:08:11.249
that was really
full of defensiveness,
01:08:11.250 --> 01:08:14.666
that contextualized my acts
01:08:14.667 --> 01:08:20.458
in the violence
of the Vietnam War,
01:08:20.459 --> 01:08:26.458
that took credit
for my intention,
01:08:26.459 --> 01:08:27.998
which was not to harm anyone,
01:08:27.999 --> 01:08:29.041
rather than that fact,
01:08:29.042 --> 01:08:30.998
which is, somebody was killed.
01:08:30.999 --> 01:08:38.208
I took limited responsibility
for what I had done
01:08:38.209 --> 01:08:41.041
because I couldn\'t even
look at that.
01:08:41.042 --> 01:08:45.875
- All rise, please.
01:08:45.876 --> 01:08:48.249
This honorable court
is now in session.
01:08:48.250 --> 01:08:49.458
Please, be seated.
01:08:49.459 --> 01:08:51.958
- At the sentencing,
Clare Schroeder,
01:08:51.959 --> 01:08:54.124
the daughter
of Walter Schroeder,
01:08:54.125 --> 01:08:56.541
read a victim impact statement.
01:08:56.542 --> 01:08:59.958
She talked about
her family\'s suffering.
01:08:59.959 --> 01:09:02.998
- I wish I could take
at least some comfort
01:09:02.999 --> 01:09:04.541
in knowing that Katherine Power
01:09:04.542 --> 01:09:08.124
feels genuine remorse
for her crime.
01:09:08.125 --> 01:09:09.998
But I have read the statement
that she made
01:09:09.999 --> 01:09:11.958
when she surrendered
to the Boston police
01:09:11.959 --> 01:09:12.998
over and over again,
01:09:12.999 --> 01:09:15.124
and there is not
a shred of apology
01:09:15.125 --> 01:09:17.124
for the murder of my father.
01:09:17.125 --> 01:09:21.834
She does not even mention
my mother or any of us.
01:09:25.999 --> 01:09:27.416
- Ms. Power,
when I accepted
01:09:27.417 --> 01:09:31.541
your plea of guilty
several weeks ago,
01:09:31.542 --> 01:09:34.333
I\'m exceeding the recommendation
01:09:34.334 --> 01:09:37.998
by imposing
a probation condition.
01:09:37.999 --> 01:09:39.541
Do you accept that,
01:09:39.542 --> 01:09:42.541
or do you wish
to withdraw your plea?
01:09:42.542 --> 01:09:44.124
- I accept it.
01:09:44.125 --> 01:09:46.125
- You may step down.
01:09:49.334 --> 01:09:50.998
- The thing that happened,
01:09:50.999 --> 01:09:54.750
because I did have to serve
my time in Massachusetts,
01:09:54.751 --> 01:09:57.998
is that I couldn\'t escape
what I was there for.
01:09:57.999 --> 01:10:05.750
I couldn\'t escape
the scrutiny of people
01:10:05.751 --> 01:10:08.998
who would not
put the history aside
01:10:08.999 --> 01:10:12.958
until it was time
to put the history aside,
01:10:12.959 --> 01:10:14.998
who wouldn\'t say,
01:10:14.999 --> 01:10:17.998
\"Okay, it\'s time
to live in the present;
01:10:17.999 --> 01:10:19.416
all is forgiven,\"
01:10:19.417 --> 01:10:25.998
until justice
had somehow clearly been served.
01:10:25.999 --> 01:10:32.998
Part of justice
is that I had to suffer,
01:10:32.999 --> 01:10:37.125
and I had to be seen to suffer.
01:10:40.626 --> 01:10:42.998
- I think that Kathy
01:10:42.999 --> 01:10:46.998
also had to get past
the \"yes, but,\"
01:10:46.999 --> 01:10:48.998
is the way I\'ve heard her
describe it.
01:10:48.999 --> 01:10:50.082
\"Yes, I did a terrible thing,
01:10:50.083 --> 01:10:53.998
\"but look at what
Kissinger and McNamara
01:10:53.999 --> 01:10:55.374
\"and the others did.
01:10:55.375 --> 01:10:57.374
\"Yes, I made a bad decision,
01:10:57.375 --> 01:11:00.833
but it was in the context
of this atrocity.\"
01:11:00.834 --> 01:11:04.416
That reality of what
the leaders of the country
01:11:04.417 --> 01:11:06.998
did about Vietnam, that\'s real,
01:11:06.999 --> 01:11:08.998
but it\'s irrelevant.
01:11:08.999 --> 01:11:12.583
In this process
of repentance only,
01:11:12.584 --> 01:11:13.998
that is irrelevant.
01:11:13.999 --> 01:11:16.791
It doesn\'t matter what
other people in our lives did.
01:11:16.792 --> 01:11:18.998
It could be the same thing
in a marital relationship.
01:11:18.999 --> 01:11:21.291
If you want to do a searching
and fearless moral inventory,
01:11:21.292 --> 01:11:24.291
it\'s not about, \"Yes,
but, you know, he\'s a jerk,
01:11:24.292 --> 01:11:25.998
or she\'s a jerk.\"
01:11:25.999 --> 01:11:27.291
It\'s really about focusing...
01:11:27.292 --> 01:11:29.291
Keeping the focus on ourselves.
01:11:29.292 --> 01:11:31.998
That\'s... that\'s hard.
01:11:31.999 --> 01:11:34.124
It doesn\'t have to be
about the generals.
01:11:34.125 --> 01:11:37.998
The \"yes, but\" is something
everybody experiences.
01:11:37.999 --> 01:11:41.208
And we don\'t have
to become ignorant
01:11:41.209 --> 01:11:43.625
of the other person\'s stuff,
01:11:43.626 --> 01:11:46.291
but it\'s not relevant
to this process.
01:11:46.292 --> 01:11:49.416
And that takes time,
and it takes courage.
01:11:49.417 --> 01:11:52.917
- The hardest work
01:11:52.918 --> 01:11:57.500
was to keep peeling back
these layers of defensiveness,
01:11:57.501 --> 01:12:03.917
the comfort of not looking
at what I had done,
01:12:03.918 --> 01:12:07.416
and I got through all that.
01:12:07.417 --> 01:12:09.998
I was really, like, laid bare.
01:12:09.999 --> 01:12:14.998
I was really,
utterly connected now
01:12:14.999 --> 01:12:19.416
with the stories
of the human harm,
01:12:19.417 --> 01:12:22.998
the human suffering
that my actions had caused,
01:12:22.999 --> 01:12:25.458
the holes in lives
that they left,
01:12:25.459 --> 01:12:27.875
the fears that they created.
01:12:27.876 --> 01:12:30.875
But there was this one place
where I was blocked,
01:12:30.876 --> 01:12:31.998
and it was this, like...
01:12:31.999 --> 01:12:33.666
It was the last
of the \"yes, buts.\"
01:12:33.667 --> 01:12:35.998
It was the generals
and the whole war machinery.
01:12:35.999 --> 01:12:39.666
It was:
how come Robert McNamara,
01:12:39.667 --> 01:12:43.998
who is responsible
for all these deaths
01:12:43.999 --> 01:12:46.666
doesn\'t have to be
held accountable,
01:12:46.667 --> 01:12:48.917
but I do?
01:12:48.918 --> 01:12:53.791
And I just...
I was in so much awareness
01:12:53.792 --> 01:12:58.666
of the unjust order
01:12:58.667 --> 01:13:02.041
where some people get away
with all kinds of things
01:13:02.042 --> 01:13:04.458
and other people
are held accountable.
01:13:04.459 --> 01:13:06.249
So I was in a prison
with prostitutes,
01:13:06.250 --> 01:13:11.416
but the johns
didn\'t get prosecuted.
01:13:11.417 --> 01:13:13.998
And so it was the johns
and the generals
01:13:13.999 --> 01:13:17.166
and all of the people
responsible
01:13:17.167 --> 01:13:20.374
for all kinds of suffering
that I knew about,
01:13:20.375 --> 01:13:22.583
that many people know about.
01:13:22.584 --> 01:13:24.791
Why didn\'t they
have to answer for it?
01:13:24.792 --> 01:13:26.583
And I was so stuck there,
01:13:26.584 --> 01:13:28.166
and I knew that I was stuck,
01:13:28.167 --> 01:13:31.374
and I couldn\'t think
through it anymore,
01:13:31.375 --> 01:13:33.998
because that
wasn\'t getting me anywhere.
01:13:33.999 --> 01:13:36.374
And I was writing about it,
01:13:36.375 --> 01:13:38.998
sitting in my cell, freewriting,
01:13:38.999 --> 01:13:41.791
and writing about, you know,
\"Why don\'t they have to?\"
01:13:41.792 --> 01:13:45.998
And suddenly,
these... these words:
01:13:45.999 --> 01:13:49.249
\"Forgive us our trespasses
01:13:49.250 --> 01:13:54.750
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.\"
01:13:54.751 --> 01:13:57.333
And that was it.
01:13:57.334 --> 01:14:01.998
I forgave...
01:14:01.999 --> 01:14:09.999
those generals
for being where they were,
01:14:10.125 --> 01:14:11.750
doing what they did.
01:14:11.751 --> 01:14:19.500
I saw a world of forgiveness
01:14:19.501 --> 01:14:24.917
where we are all
01:14:24.918 --> 01:14:30.291
in the embrace
of that forgiveness,
01:14:30.292 --> 01:14:35.500
of that forgivable-ness.
01:14:35.501 --> 01:14:42.291
And I couldn\'t get myself there
01:14:42.292 --> 01:14:50.292
until I got those people
I hadn\'t forgiven there.
01:14:50.918 --> 01:14:52.999
And I was through.
01:14:55.999 --> 01:14:57.625
- Then a buzz came
01:14:57.626 --> 01:14:59.998
that Katherine Power
was up for parole,
01:14:59.999 --> 01:15:02.998
and it became emblematic
01:15:02.999 --> 01:15:08.998
for the whole
Vietnam era issues,
01:15:08.999 --> 01:15:10.998
not only just
who was for and against the war
01:15:10.999 --> 01:15:11.999
but who served in the war,
01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:13.998
who got out
of the serving in the war,
01:15:13.999 --> 01:15:16.791
and the idea of privilege
as well.
01:15:16.792 --> 01:15:19.666
So everybody\'s running full bore
on this one now.
01:15:19.667 --> 01:15:26.459
Do you seek retribution,
or do you forgive?
01:15:28.584 --> 01:15:29.584
- I walked in.
01:15:29.585 --> 01:15:31.998
My hands were shackled.
01:15:31.999 --> 01:15:35.374
I sat in a chair
facing the parole board,
01:15:35.375 --> 01:15:36.998
five people on the parole board
01:15:36.999 --> 01:15:39.791
with many members
of the Schroeder family
01:15:39.792 --> 01:15:41.998
and some other people
in the back of the room.
01:15:41.999 --> 01:15:44.082
- What I got to see and to hear
01:15:44.083 --> 01:15:46.291
was somebody who recog...
01:15:46.292 --> 01:15:48.998
It seemed to me,
whose tone changed.
01:15:48.999 --> 01:15:53.583
- I was asked
really probing questions,
01:15:53.584 --> 01:15:59.374
and then it was
Clare Schroeder\'s turn to speak.
01:15:59.375 --> 01:16:01.998
- Clare Schroeder
spoke and said,
01:16:01.999 --> 01:16:04.998
\"Well, yeah, we kind of like
what we hear,
01:16:04.999 --> 01:16:08.998
\"but anybody with a brain
would know that
01:16:08.999 --> 01:16:12.458
\"you need to show remorse
at a parole hearing,
01:16:12.459 --> 01:16:17.124
so it\'s in her self-interest
to show remorse now.\"
01:16:17.125 --> 01:16:20.998
- She talked about when
they discussed my sentence,
01:16:20.999 --> 01:16:22.541
and they had to say yes.
01:16:22.542 --> 01:16:24.333
It was all they could get.
01:16:24.334 --> 01:16:26.958
It didn\'t feel like enough.
01:16:26.959 --> 01:16:28.750
But it was all they could get.
01:16:28.751 --> 01:16:30.124
And she said, \"And now,
01:16:30.125 --> 01:16:34.333
\"she doesn\'t even
want to do that.
01:16:34.334 --> 01:16:38.541
She doesn\'t even
want to keep that agreement.\"
01:16:38.542 --> 01:16:41.625
And I felt in that moment
like I knew what to do.
01:16:41.626 --> 01:16:44.998
And so I told them that
01:16:44.999 --> 01:16:48.833
as long as
my statement of remorse
01:16:48.834 --> 01:16:52.374
and accepting responsibility
for what I\'d done
01:16:52.375 --> 01:16:57.166
was attached to my asking
to get out of prison
01:16:57.167 --> 01:16:58.791
at this time,
01:16:58.792 --> 01:16:59.998
that it couldn\'t be seen.
01:16:59.999 --> 01:17:00.999
It couldn\'t be heard.
01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:02.583
So I would detach it from that,
01:17:02.584 --> 01:17:05.374
and I withdrew
my request for parole.
01:17:05.375 --> 01:17:09.917
- It was really one of those...
01:17:09.918 --> 01:17:12.082
It was a holy [...] moment.
01:17:12.083 --> 01:17:14.666
It stopped everybody
in their tracks,
01:17:14.667 --> 01:17:18.458
\'cause what was else
was there to say?
01:17:18.459 --> 01:17:24.041
She had done more
than anybody had expected.
01:17:24.042 --> 01:17:26.041
Very few people
01:17:26.042 --> 01:17:31.875
say they were wrong
in a public way.
01:17:31.876 --> 01:17:35.458
Very few people are willing
to face their punishment,
01:17:35.459 --> 01:17:37.458
certainly by today\'s standards.
01:17:37.459 --> 01:17:41.458
And when Katherine Power said,
\"I was wrong.
01:17:41.459 --> 01:17:43.041
\"I was slow to admit it.
01:17:43.042 --> 01:17:46.249
\"I admit it now,
and I apologize,
01:17:46.250 --> 01:17:52.333
and I will serve out
whatever I need to serve out,\"
01:17:52.334 --> 01:17:55.998
that was a refreshing...
01:17:55.999 --> 01:17:59.333
Just a refreshing change
01:17:59.334 --> 01:18:03.124
to what the public
was used to seeing.
01:18:03.125 --> 01:18:07.998
- The next day, I was so aware
of my disappointment.
01:18:07.999 --> 01:18:12.998
My son really needed me,
01:18:12.999 --> 01:18:17.584
and I could not go
and be with him.
01:18:18.999 --> 01:18:20.998
The hardship of prison...
01:18:20.999 --> 01:18:27.708
I wasn\'t trying to get away
from the hardship of prison.
01:18:27.709 --> 01:18:33.999
I wanted to go
because my son needed me.
01:18:36.792 --> 01:18:38.583
- I certainly at least
admired the fact
01:18:38.584 --> 01:18:40.998
that she requested
to withdraw parole,
01:18:40.999 --> 01:18:41.999
to stay longer,
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:43.374
because it goes
against the grain
01:18:43.375 --> 01:18:44.998
of what a person
would want to do.
01:18:44.999 --> 01:18:47.750
You\'d want to get out of prison
as quickly as possible.
01:18:47.751 --> 01:18:52.625
So I thought the fact that
she felt she was doing
01:18:52.626 --> 01:18:55.917
something that
was beneficial for us
01:18:55.918 --> 01:18:57.500
said something
at least in regards
01:18:57.501 --> 01:19:01.875
to some growth that she...
01:19:01.876 --> 01:19:04.666
And some thought, some feeling,
and some growth,
01:19:04.667 --> 01:19:06.998
that... that had occurred,
01:19:06.999 --> 01:19:09.124
that she acknowledged
on a greater level
01:19:09.125 --> 01:19:10.333
than at least in the past
01:19:10.334 --> 01:19:11.541
as to what she had done
01:19:11.542 --> 01:19:13.958
and the harm
that she had caused.
01:19:13.959 --> 01:19:17.124
- I asked her
what she had hoped for
01:19:17.125 --> 01:19:19.666
with respect
to the Schroeder family.
01:19:19.667 --> 01:19:21.249
And she said,
01:19:21.250 --> 01:19:28.998
\"I have no right
to expect anything of them.
01:19:28.999 --> 01:19:35.459
I have no right
to ask anything of them.\"
01:19:37.667 --> 01:19:42.458
And that seemed, to me, right.
01:19:42.459 --> 01:19:43.875
[cameras clicking]
01:19:43.876 --> 01:19:46.998
- I hope that she can say
that she redeemed herself
01:19:46.999 --> 01:19:50.249
and became the person
that she should have been.
01:19:50.250 --> 01:19:52.875
But I have to look at her
not as who she is
01:19:52.876 --> 01:19:54.249
but as what she did,
01:19:54.250 --> 01:19:56.458
because what she did
01:19:56.459 --> 01:19:59.666
is not something
that I have the authority
01:19:59.667 --> 01:20:02.458
or the power
to excuse or forgive.
01:20:02.459 --> 01:20:05.291
I don\'t.
01:20:05.292 --> 01:20:06.500
I\'m not the dead person.
01:20:06.501 --> 01:20:07.917
My father is the dead person.
01:20:07.918 --> 01:20:09.998
He\'s not here to say
what you did was okay.
01:20:09.999 --> 01:20:12.500
He\'ll never be here
to say what she did was okay.
01:20:12.501 --> 01:20:14.917
So what she did was not okay.
01:20:14.918 --> 01:20:16.917
It was not ever okay.
01:20:16.918 --> 01:20:18.500
It will never be okay.
01:20:18.501 --> 01:20:19.998
It\'s not forgivable.
01:20:19.999 --> 01:20:21.500
Very simply.
01:20:21.501 --> 01:20:23.917
But that doesn\'t mean
that she can\'t then go on
01:20:23.918 --> 01:20:25.998
to be the person
that she hopes to become.
01:20:25.999 --> 01:20:28.082
And that...
That\'s a great goal.
01:20:28.083 --> 01:20:29.666
And I wish that for her.
01:20:29.667 --> 01:20:31.458
- Kathy, come here
and talk to us.
01:20:31.459 --> 01:20:34.041
- When I came out of prison,
01:20:34.042 --> 01:20:35.998
when I finished my sentence...
01:20:35.999 --> 01:20:36.999
- Do you have anything
01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:38.666
you want to say
to the Schroeder family?
01:20:38.667 --> 01:20:41.666
- A certain set of obligations
was satisfied.
01:20:41.667 --> 01:20:44.458
I had done what had to be done.
01:20:44.459 --> 01:20:47.666
There\'s not a wall there
that says,
01:20:47.667 --> 01:20:51.541
\"Okay, the past
didn\'t happen.\"
01:20:51.542 --> 01:20:54.333
The past did happen.
01:20:54.334 --> 01:20:57.124
And the suffering and the harm
01:20:57.125 --> 01:20:59.249
that came into people\'s lives
01:20:59.250 --> 01:21:01.998
lives on in their lives,
01:21:01.999 --> 01:21:07.416
and I am not unaware of that.
01:21:07.417 --> 01:21:09.208
It\'s just that I am no longer
01:21:09.209 --> 01:21:13.625
defined by that solely.
01:21:13.626 --> 01:21:18.416
Having been
so wrong-thinking
01:21:18.417 --> 01:21:23.833
and so caught up
in what mattered to me
01:21:23.834 --> 01:21:26.208
that I acted in a way
01:21:26.209 --> 01:21:31.998
that destroyed a life
01:21:31.999 --> 01:21:36.625
and left its mark of loss
on a whole community of people,
01:21:36.626 --> 01:21:39.583
that doesn\'t go away.
01:21:39.584 --> 01:21:43.166
- I understand her desire
not to be defined by a moment,
01:21:43.167 --> 01:21:45.998
by a single act
or by a single moment.
01:21:45.999 --> 01:21:47.998
I fully understand that.
01:21:47.999 --> 01:21:51.998
Regrettably, where my life
and Katherine\'s life intersect
01:21:51.999 --> 01:21:55.998
is unfortunately at that moment.
01:21:55.999 --> 01:21:58.625
So in my mind, it\'s inevitable.
01:21:58.626 --> 01:22:01.417
She will always be defined
by that moment.
01:22:06.999 --> 01:22:09.583
Narrator: Kathy Power
has taken a private journey
01:22:09.584 --> 01:22:11.833
of intense self-examination
01:22:11.834 --> 01:22:15.791
and has made a public
confession and expiation.
01:22:15.792 --> 01:22:19.625
On a far larger scale,
01:22:19.626 --> 01:22:21.958
there are some
who feel that our country
01:22:21.959 --> 01:22:23.750
has not yet understood
01:22:23.751 --> 01:22:25.998
and taken responsibility
publicly
01:22:25.999 --> 01:22:28.959
for the dimensions
of our actions.
01:22:31.375 --> 01:22:33.998
Across the black granite wall
01:22:33.999 --> 01:22:37.166
stretch the names
of 58,000 Americans
01:22:37.167 --> 01:22:39.791
who died in that war.
01:22:39.792 --> 01:22:43.250
3 million Vietnamese
and their neighbors also died.
01:22:47.334 --> 01:22:49.249
Veterans
and their families come,
01:22:49.250 --> 01:22:52.124
putting their hands
and their tears
01:22:52.125 --> 01:22:56.333
on the names of lost friends
and relatives.
01:22:56.334 --> 01:22:58.750
The Vietnam War
divided our country
01:22:58.751 --> 01:23:02.998
and provoked criticism
in many parts of the world.
01:23:02.999 --> 01:23:04.583
We are only at the beginning
01:23:04.584 --> 01:23:07.998
of a long-deferred
journey of introspection.
01:23:07.999 --> 01:23:10.833
The Vietnam wall
was a first step.
01:23:10.834 --> 01:23:14.998
It is a symbolic offering
of grief.
01:23:14.999 --> 01:23:16.998
It comes at a time when nations
01:23:16.999 --> 01:23:19.416
are beginning
to acknowledge and apologize
01:23:19.417 --> 01:23:22.998
for the harms
they have brought upon others.
01:23:22.999 --> 01:23:24.998
It is an extraordinary moment,
01:23:24.999 --> 01:23:28.999
unprecedented
in the lives of nations.
Distributor: Bullfrog Films
Length: 84 minutes
Date: 2011
Genre: Expository
Language: English
Grade: 10 - 12, College, Adults
Color/BW:
Closed Captioning: Available
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