WEBVTT

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[sil.]

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[sil.]

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[music]

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400 years ago the Spaniards
who crossed this land called

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at Elano the St. Augustine, the
planes of the St. Augustine.

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Now the very larger ray

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stretches across these
planes, radio telescopes,

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alien hearing aids pivoting
towards some new galaxy.

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The planes of St. Augustine
is a very special place

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and driving west across them
you come to Catherine County.

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[music]

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It\'ll be a scorcher in Mexico today.

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Even harder in Catherine County. Ranchers and
environmentalists are squaring off again.

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Catherine County New Mexico is
almost 7 thousand square miles

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in the southwest corner of the state, as
large as Connecticut Delaware combined.

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From the northern boundary of
the county the Augustine planes

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stretch south-west over
50 miles and then dog-leg

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toward the green of the Gila forest are
countries First National Wilderness.

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And then the Gila as far as the eye can
see now it rolls toward the desert

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and after all that you\'d
still being the County.

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According to Forest Service officials
a pipe bomb was found yesterday

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in Gila National Forest.

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It is one of the most remote places in
the lower 48 and folks here are proud

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to tell you that there are 20
thousand elk, 2500 people,

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no stoplights and best of all no lawyers.

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There were also no physicians.

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Doc Foster had just retired
after 50 years of practice,

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the only physician in the County.
A frontier doctor.

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The last of an old breed.

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Dr. Foster.

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A new clinical had been built and named in his
honor, but there was no one to practice in it.

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So we were coming to see if we could help.

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Catherine County in Mexico I in the news again. (inaudible)
a family practice doctor in residency training

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interested in the possibility of a rural
practice. I\'m a physician on the faculty

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at the School of Medicine in
Albuquerque and I\'m also a filmmaker.

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And over the past six years, I\'ve been caught
up in a story of a community whose health

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has been Threatened, threatened by.

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Health is not

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just a description of how people should ideally feel.
Health is also about the condition of the land

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and the economy of a place and
the spirit of the people.

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And above all good health doesn\'t
mix with the fear of violence.

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Today Catherine County commissioners passed a resolution
that would require all households to own guns.

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[music]

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News reports hinted a trouble,

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but it would ultimately take a new doctor
to help diagnose the community\'s problems.

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Marc Andreessen who\'s being
recruited (inaudible)

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like having the whole town of
lunar turnout for a barbecue

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at the fire (inaudible) . Hi,
Marc Andreessen nice to meet you.

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It\'s a great pleasure to have the opportunity
to introduce to the Catherine County community

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our new physician Dr.
Marc Andreessen. Marc.

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[sil.]

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Really can\'t wait to get started
and working with everybody here.

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So by this time next year
we\'ll be ready to go I hope.

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[sil.]

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Most of (inaudible)

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have happened from (inaudible).

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(inaudible) landed on top of his arm
on a rock, has a fractured heel

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which Barclays non-displaced which means ….
In October 1993,

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Dr. Marc as he was called became
Catherine County\'s new doctor.

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He moved into the Foster clinic
and started to practice medicine.

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After few days the swelling is coming down.

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Thirty-two (inaudible)
broken both my shoulders,

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my elbows, broke my wrist, knees,

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dislocated my back, (inaudible),

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broke the neck, (inaudible).

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The disease (inaudible) . Best
(inaudible) generation to generation.

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[music]

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Marc was learning about a new community,

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learning from people who were descendants
of early Spaniards siblings. Talking with

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great great grandchildren of Mormons
who wandered off from the main convoy.

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Marc was the physician to an assortment
of other folks whose families

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had moved West in the second half of
the last (inaudible). Looking for gold

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and silver and land.

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[music]

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This is a place where people
have come to get (inaudible)

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more or less prominent.
Federal health guidelines

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don\'t call Catherine County rural.
They call it a frontier.

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Its 100 miles to the closest hospital.
Sixty five to the nearest pharmacy

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and it\'s a 100 mile round
trip to make a home visit

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to Amagita Aragon and Christina
Royal both in their 80s

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Who still live on the Augustine
planes, land their father homestead

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at the turn of the century.
When you were born

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were there any doctors around?

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(inaudible) they had midwives.

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That was my doctor (inaudible).
Right, right.

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She was born in (inaudible) . Was
that right. Yaa, but she didn\'t go.

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She had a midwife too. Was that right? Yes.

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Do you want to go inside? (inaudible.

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A good country doctor learns to listen even
more acutely than his urban colleagues

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to the rhythms of people\'s lives The
stories of their connection to the land.

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[sil.]

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I am going to listen to
your heart and lungs.

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So where do you want to sit? Yeah, there.
This work on the land

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that drives the pulse of a rural community and
when that work is threatened you can sense it

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and Marc was beginning to
find problems with the pulse.

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(inaudible) smoke does it bother
your asthma at all, make it worse?

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Yes. The stove does. Yes.

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Show more down the road there\'s going (inaudible) red
stuff, I don\'t believe this is going to be ketchups.

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There\'s a lot of talk like that in Catherine County
these days. Neighbors are in each other\'s faces.

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I\'ve been followed to my home by man and a
pickup truck and as I was walking up my friend

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(inaudible), this is about a month ago. He had got
down the hippie environmentalist (inaudible).

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Do you wonder whether you\'re going
to be home that evening or not.

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Especially when there was
so much rhetoric about guns

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and ever family having a
gun and things like that,

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a lot of people that work with four
servers and myself felt threatened.

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There had been times in this community
where I am really concerned

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about my well-being. When
it\'s gotten really radical.

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Lots of threats.

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I do remember when the people who
are doing the Biological Survey

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for the spotted owl had all their
tire slashed four vehicles,

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that was just like the tip of the iceberg

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and I remember feeling
that there was a really

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dangerous undercurrent that
could have erupted anytime.

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Just relax (inaudible) . Alright.
How painful is it now.

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I\'m pushing on here. I\'m just going to lift this edge up a
little bit, so I can get the scissors in there and cut.

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Okay, alright? Yeah. Most probably too bad.
Placed my nail there. (inaudible)

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really started to take an absurd turn within
the first 12 months of having been there,

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black helicopters coming
in, militias intentionally

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fight back Federal troops that
were camping out in the woods,

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explosives in the wilderness,

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rumors of an eco terrorism, flag
burnings in the United Nations flag,

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attended by county officials
in the town square.

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[music]

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(inaudible) try to form a militia in Catherine
County and eventually it didn\'t get together,

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but there\'s a lot of people
that have the (inaudible)

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show that there are forceful body and nobody
should try and take the freedom to write.

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[sil.]

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I was approached after about
a year of having been there

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by a counselor that was hired by the Forest
Service to do some group therapy for them

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around the issue of violence and violence
prevention and stress that was causing

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who identified me as someone who is
neutral and had perceived authority

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in the community along with three
other ministers to help support Mike

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at that time as the forest
services dealing with the stress.

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I felt threatened. My
family felt threatened.

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I didn\'t know each day when I went
to work whether I\'d be coming home

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or I\'d be going to jail. Going to
jail for potentially violating

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a newly enacted Catherine County ordinance.
An ordinance that would subject

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any federal employee to arrest and prosecution
if they were to violate the custom

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or the culture of the county.
Mike wasn\'t exactly sure

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what custom and culture meant. But he did
know that the ordinance was designed

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with him in mind. He and his
fellow Forest Service Workers

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were about the only federal
employees in the county.

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The county\'s reaction to increasing federal
pressure on land management policy

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was a predictable one.
Self-reliance and Home Rule

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interpretive as we can do it better
than anybody else so leave us alone.

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That set up two dynamics one
is the extremes we\'re at war

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and more importantly in my role in the community there
was a huge group of people caught in the middle.

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In a small town had allegiances to both sides
didn\'t know where to put their allegiances.

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In the meantime the economy continues
to crumble with no hope in sight

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for those people who are being affected.

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I was very concerned both
personally for my family

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and for the community about the possibility
of all the elements for violence were there.

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Poverty, substance abuse,
anger (inaudible).

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[music]

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Hello (inaudible).

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When you went down town and you saw

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a poster with Smokey the Bear and a
chain saw rep and the heads off of

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spotted owls and you saw ceramic spotted
out, hanging by news in a store.

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It made you angry. Even though
you didn\'t support that,

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it made me angry and made
me want to strike out.

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Okay. The whole community
was feeling the strengths,

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environmentalist, Ranchers, bloggers,

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ordinary citizens, almost
everyone you talk to.

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Our protest is with environmentally and not
(inaudible) when that really started or acquired

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and we just kind of woke up one day

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and it was wholeness,

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in a course anytime that
anybody gets trying to

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run your business and they don\'t
even know what you\'re talking about,

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you\'re going to fight it and protest it.

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When I first came here
that saw mill was running

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two shifts at least. You saw
huge trees coming out of here,

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now almost non-stop

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and zero regard for the wildlife.

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I really felt like the
Forest Service was totally

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had a service catering to stone
and south-west forest industries

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needs and demands.

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[sil.]

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If the people control the timber
industry in this country.

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If they\'d all get together
and close all the doors,

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lock everything up, in two weeks time

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when that toilet paper could
hit in the stores, then people

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would find out that we\'re just
out there chopping down trees

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and killing the forest where they wanted to
bring in this depth to their table there.

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Where do they think this comes from?

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I went to public meetings

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where I spoke in favor of
the Endangered Species Act

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and listing certain species

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and that was at a meeting where there were
threats of using bullets and shootings

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and I remember leaving that meeting
being concerned for my vehicle,

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concern for my own safety. I was very
concerned for the safety of the people

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who are now the Southwest
Center for biodiversity.

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It was five years of pretty
harrowing times with no body

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really come into your aid. Nobody stand,

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Attaboy Mike hang in there, (inaudible)
going to change (inaudible).

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Change comes slowly in Catherine County.
There seems no compelling need

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or desire for a more rapid pace.
There\'s no newspaper here.

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No local radio station, no
mall or fast food chain,

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or movie field. But in July 1994

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this isolated County
made national headlines

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when the commissioners adopted a resolution
calling for every household to hold a gun.

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[music]

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You don\'t have the right to take our guns away
from us, you don\'t have a right to pass a law

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that says we don\'t have the right to have a gun. That sentiment
reflects a growing anger in many rural areas in the West.

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Anger not just over gun control, but
over federal regulations of all kinds.

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Especially those perceived to
be hurting local economies.

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(inaudible) I felt because these
kind of (inaudible) changeability.

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The gone resolution definitely got
people\'s attention but it was non-binding.

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Really a bit of over tuned in a place already
full of guns. It was mostly posturing.

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Not letting other people tell you
what to do. It was like a throwback

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to the old ones.

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[music]

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[sil.]

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Marc was beginning to see a pattern
of symptoms among his patient.

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More drinking and drugs, more family abuse.
More requests

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for treatment of anxiety and depression.
He was very concerned

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about the health of his community.

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It became quickly apparent to me

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that I couldn\'t affect

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the cause of all the things that I was seeing
in the clinic as an individual practitioner

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and I wanted to try to do something on a community
level and I was given Linda Smith\'s name.

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Marc called me to ask for some advice
about how to deal with the situation

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in Catherine County and
ask for my assistance.

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He knew my agency had done some work in violence prevention
and intervention. And we came up with a list together,

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we looked at clergyman,
business people, ranchers,

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environmentalists, and others
who he knew who trusted him

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and who might be willing to sit down and begin
to talk about the issues that divide them.

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My mother and my brother are
sitting at the kitchen table

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with a lot of constitution

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and they are reading from this
article about (inaudible)

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who came into County Commission meeting

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and threatened the county commissioners that he
was not come in with this Blackhawk helicopter

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and his armored vehicles

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and (inaudible).

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Okay. I said if you\'re armed against

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the Bradley vehicle a 33rd
is not going to (inaudible)

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that got twisted and turned into
what were saying (inaudible)

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and what my mother read in the newspaper

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(and inaudible). The federal
government is just

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should not be making laws,
there should not be

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the one that decides our
destiny in this county.

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And it causes a lot of hardship and it
causes a lot of people to get angry.

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When you get pushed (inaudible)
you can get pushed.

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You will have a definitive
property that you (inaudible)

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just like me that got 3 regenerations
and everything I\'ve got is on the line.

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When a logger thinks
about environmentalist,

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he thinks about sugar and the gas
dates and facts relevant to the bank,

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now not all environmentalists do this.
It is radical

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and you can probably think of forest rangers
who\'ve been here who were sneakers.

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.999
But they\'re not all sneakers and
they can do that with ranchers too.

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:24.999
So lets get away from the extremes and
try to get (inaudible) to the middle.

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.999
Linda is a mediator. A peacemaker.

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.999
She wanted to develop a process that community was
comfortable with. A process to begin to discuss

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:39.999
the issues that divided citizens.

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.999
The group came together and it was probably the
first time that this diverse group of people

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.999
sat in the same room and they talked about some
ground rules which they established themselves.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:54.999
One was that they would listen
with respect to each other.

00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.999
Another was that they wouldn\'t interrupt each other
and they had a fairly productive conversation

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.999
during that first meeting. I am glad
to see this. Let me go back like

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.999
it was in the 50s. Have our saw mill open up again
and there\'s enough timber out and (inaudible)

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.999
I don\'t mind see this
lot\'s going to Arizona.

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:19.999
I would like to see more peace
and harmony for our children,

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.999
less alcoholism, less crime and violence.

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:29.999
Very clearly spent a tremendous education
for me to see both sides of the issues.

00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.999
I don\'t know much about ranching and I don\'t
know much about environmental issues,

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.999
but I can go from one room to the next
in a rancher to forest service employee

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.999
to an X to some guys Holland
logs and I was handed out,

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.999
the same goes to all because everybody was
stressed out and they\'re feeling lousy

00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.999
and one room was blaming the other room.
So you know

00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:59.999
I sort of got a tremendous education
in my own head I thought well really

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.999
after talking to these folks from divergent points of view after
a period of time, I realized there\'s a tremendous common ground.

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.999
People really did agree on a lot of stuff
but they weren\'t talking to each other.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.999
Most people talked about how they

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.999
hoped that they could somehow eliminate
the conflict that was in the community.

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.999
They want to things the way they were
before. They wanted to reestablish peace.

00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.999
People who had barely been civil,
had now listened to one another.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.999
And Mike Gardner and QB McKeon actually
shook hands and agreed to meet again.

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:43.000
[music]

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.999
After the meeting I realized how little
I knew about ranching and logging

00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.999
or environmental conflict. I needed to get some
perspective an overall view of the issues.

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.999
[music]

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.999
HP Birmingham keeps track of
things in Catherine County.

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.999
He knows where everything happened.
The early settlements,

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.999
the gold and silver mines,
gunfire, and hetero drives

00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.999
and Moonshine\'s stills. He can point out the
county\'s history from Eagle peak lookout

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.999
where he spotted fires for over 35 years.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:38.000
[sil.]

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.999
From the sheep man they said
low (inaudible) open country

00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.999
Augustine planes and the
(inaudible) they came in

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:54.999
and liked this country back here
because it was rendered water,

00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:59.999
control the water that
can control the country.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.999
If you look at a map of Catherine
County almost all you see is green

00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.999
National Forest and wilderness land.
Privately owned land

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.999
is in white and there\'s not much of it.
From his (inaudible)

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.999
HP showed me where the first
settlers had come into the country.

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:24.999
They migrated up these valleys
and farmed where the water was.

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.999
They raised enough cattle for their own
consumptions and maybe a little profit.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.999
But things changed in the late 1800s.

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:39.999
Westward expansion brought new markets
for cattle and sheep. And the plains

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.999
of St. Augustine and the surrounding Gila
forests were converted to a huge pasture.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.999
The town of Magdalena on the eastern
edge of the Augustine plains

00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.999
became the trading hub. A rail spur was built
to Magdalena off the Santa (inaudible).

00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.999
By the early 1900s

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.999
Magdalena had become the largest huddled
transfer point West of Kansas City

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:09.999
and every year thousands
of cattle and sheep

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:14.999
were driven from Western New Mexico and
Eastern Arizona across the Augustine plains

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.999
to the rail headed Magdalena. It was
the town at the end of the train.

00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.999
Today there\'s substantially fewer
cattle in Catherine County.

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:29.999
About 42 thousand in all. At UB
with help from some neighbors

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.999
was rounding up about 200 head
on a portion of his private land

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:39.999
in the southern part of the county.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.999
[sil.]

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:49.999
I had called UB to see if we can talk about
the issues he had raised at the meeting.

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.999
He said come on down. UB
doing some pregnancy jobs

00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:59.999
and that sounded well challenged.

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.999
[sil.]

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.999
Eventually I figured out the
long and the short of it.

00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.999
Long breed means the cow will probably calve in the
next several weeks and we\'ll be pastured close by.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.999
Short breed means early spring cats.

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.999
Short breed? Short breed.

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.999
[sil.]

00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.999
UBS grandfather bought his ranch in 1904.

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:39.999
Moving here from Arizona to get
away from the Apache. His brand

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.999
was the HO bond and UB we\'ll pass it on
to a fourth generation of the kin\'s.

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.999
In addition to his private
land UB and his father

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:54.999
and his grandfather traditionally
grazed cattle on national forest land.

00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.999
This federal grazing land

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.999
is leased from the government for a fee, in exchange the ranchers
granted to grazing permits for a determined number of cattle.

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:09.999
For the myokines usually
about 145 head of cattle

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.999
on 12 thousand acres of
national foreign, it works out

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.999
to about one cow for 80 acres.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:24.999
The number of cattle allowed to graze

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.999
on any grazing permit depends on the condition
of the land as determined by the Forest Service.

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:34.999
In drought years fewer cattle.
If the land has been overgrazed

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.999
fewer cattle. In the past

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.999
the rancher and the Forest Service tried to reach a
reasonable agreement about what the land could bear

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.999
but now it\'s no longer just
a two party agreement.

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:54.999
We the citizens are the other party

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.999
to the agreement. Until the rise
of the environmental movement

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.999
most of this pictured ranchers and cowboys as
rough cut hero picture book in movie (inaudible)

00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:09.999
staunch guardians of the open spaces.
All that has changed.

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.999
Over the past 20 years
national environmental groups

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.999
with considerable public support abroad
increasing pressure on the U.S. Forest Service

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.999
to limit grazing and logging
on national forest land.

00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.999
There has been plenty of ammunition.
Examples all over the west

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.999
where too many cattle have overrun stream
bends and grazed away native grasses

00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:39.999
that hold soil in place. The Forest Service

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.999
is being sued by environmental groups to
assure compliance and as a result ranchers

00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.999
are now under increasing scrutiny.
Cattle numbers had been cut drastically

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.999
and some environmental groups have vowed to
eliminate all cattle grazing on federal lands.

00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:03.000
[sil.]

00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:09.999
Janet Kelly is a rancher, a
friend a neighbor of UBs.

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:14.999
She had come to help with the roundup.

00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.999
A rancher cannot run cattle unless he has
grass. So he doesn\'t produce cattle,

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.999
he produces grass. And then the byproduct is cattle that
runoff that. They have got (inaudible) uncontrollable

00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:29.999
and we\'ve got watershed

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.999
that is just tear and every thing up because there\'s nothing
there to hold the water in the ground and the grass is outbound.

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:39.999
Not because of cattle, but because
of the trade growth. I mean

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.999
this is common knowledge, you did something, I\'m
making it, I can walk you through any place

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.999
where there\'s (inaudible) and you won\'t see grass
because there\'s no water, hits the ground.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:54.999
It hits the (inaudible) . it never stops.

00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:59.999
Environmentalists were blaming
the loss of grazing lands

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.999
on cows on overgrazing. While Janet, UB,

00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:09.999
and other ranchers were saying too
many pinion pine and Juniper trees

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.999
were choking out native grasses.
Pretty different takes.

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.999
Clearly many more trees were clogging
the high forest of the healer and trees

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.999
were also invading traditional grassland.
The reasons why are complex.

00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.999
Natural fire has been suppressed,
drought periodically does its damage,

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.999
as due to many cattle grazing for too long.

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:39.999
As a scientist I wanted to better
understand the process, see more evidence.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.999
Good controlled studies, but I was
learning that in the range and timber wars

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.999
science and research about the land
are marshaled by opposing science.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.999
Used for political and legal advantage
and that makes for poor science.

00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.999
One thing everybody seemed to agree on was
that they loved the land around them.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.999
They lived on it and watched it
through seasons and over decades.

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:09.999
They told stories about it. They
celebrated its diversity and it\'s bonding

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:14.999
[sil.]

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.999
If the county could take control of this
federal land, then this county right now

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.999
we could make strange run again
and we could restore grassland

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:29.999
and we could restore this country to
what it was 100 years ago, which is

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:34.999
a heck of a lot more ideal than it is right
now. What we\'ve seen in 100 years of management

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.999
is we\'ve seen our rivers and our creeks dry
up, we\'ve seen too many pinion pine trees.

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.999
Its of all (inaudible) as far

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.999
as catastrophic fires.

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.999
[sil.]

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.999
You could really see where erosions
are occurring and all the drainages.

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.999
You can see pastures diminishing, there
were places you could walk around

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.999
and see literally nothing green on the ground,
only rocks and really sparse vegetation.

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.999
And I was only here two or three years when
the first peak flood happened in 1983.

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.999
I have seen three (inaudible)
major runoffs happening

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.999
here because the ground
just can\'t hold the water.

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.999
The participation of the environmentalists was just crucial
to the success of this group because they do represent

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.999
interests beyond their numbers in Catherine County.
And while there were several other environmentalists

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.999
that began with the group some did not
stay for various reasons. Elena Geller

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.999
has been a stalwart participant.
It\'s been difficult

00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.999
for her I think sometimes, because she
has been a lone voice. But because

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.999
of her standing in the community I think has been an excellent
and respected spokesperson for an environmental perspective.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.999
I\'m Elena Geller and I\'m also
premature long-term resident

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.999
in Catherine County. At the monthly meetings
of the Catherine County citizens groups

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.999
people were explaining their work to each other,
listening and learning about each other\'s lives,

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.999
and finding as market suggested that
there was a good deal of common ground.

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.999
They kept on talking. Often for
five to six hours at a stretch.

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.999
Right that\'s the points that we we … A
coordinator was chosen for the group.

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.999
They will set a place. They will network
through the county\'s isolated communities

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.999
and brought more people to the meetings. We don\'t
necessarily have to change all the problems

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.999
that we proceed in that community on that river
overnight. It\'s going to be a lot of work.

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.999
It\'s been a lot of work and we
will probably continue doing it.

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.999
[sil.]

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.999
Raising and logging are
two separate activities,

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.999
but in the West they are connected.
Linked by traditional patterns of use.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.999
Rangers and loggers live and work
together in the same community.

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.999
In Catherine County and countless other
rural communities in the Mountain West,

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.999
the substantial part of the economic base
has been dependent on their coexistence.

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:23.000
[sil.]

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.999
Before 1990, 30 million board feet
of lumber were being cut annually

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.999
in the Gila National Forest. But in 1993,

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.999
the Mexicans spotted owl was listed as a threatened
species and logging was basically shut down.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:59.999
[sil.]

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.999
The middle and reserved closed in a county
where the average income was just above

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:09.999
poverty level everyone was affected
by the closure. People who took pride

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.999
in their history of self-sufficiency
faced economic disaster.

00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:19.999
There\'s just no money in this county

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:24.999
and no way to make any. There\'s no
industry, there\'s nothing here.

00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:29.999
(inaudible) young people have
to leave, we got pretty country

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.999
good air and clean living and low taxes,

00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.999
but they don\'t like to live in.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.999
In the background there was another
problem, the Gila National Forest

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.999
was a tinderbox of congested fuel wood.
The result of nearly a half century

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.999
of active fire suppression.

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.999
One time

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.999
you just had big Juniper tree, you\'ll see
a few up to here. Here was an open flat

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:09.999
and now this is what we grew up
here with the fire suppression

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:14.999
over there laughing The Forest Service.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.999
[sil.]

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.999
And it\'s ironic that the worst place,
the worst hottest place in the fire

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.999
they head up here is HB fire,

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.999
was where they will go first and that\'s
why the Mexican spotted our habitats

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.999
where within and around those areas.
Well guess what got burned up the worst.

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.999
Those old thick overgrowth.

00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:53.000
[sil.]

00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:59.999
The catastrophic fire that destroyed 14 thousand
acres and a significant amount of old growth canopy.

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.999
The HB fire was named after
the man who first spotted it.

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.999
I did not see the light. I guess
where that light and hit the ground.

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.999
(inaudible) at a time did go through find the
cloud. Then I\'d say from the sound of the thunder

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.999
close it was that was the lightening track

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.999
that hit that and started that bar.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.999
It was (inaudible) saying leave in
here just before the (inaudible).

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.999
But that\'s not true. I hadn\'t seen a vehicle
up in here in probably over a week.

00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.999
Then they accused the Forest Service
(inaudible) for setting the fire

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.999
so they could sell the timber. So my
(inaudible) loggers are set in a fire

00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.999
so they could cut the timber. And I think

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.999
if we do good they don\'t want the
timber cut to start (inaudible).

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.999
THE HB fire resulted in a
proposed salvage sale.

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.999
In a salvage sale burned but
usable timber can be harvested.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.999
But that would involve building temporary
roads and designated road less areas.

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.999
Environmentalist protested.
Todd Shocky was the

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.999
New Mexico staff person for the
Southwest Center for biodiversity

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.999
which is based in Tucson. And we met with him
and asked him if he would be willing to come

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:29.999
and meet with the group and talk about the
HB fire sale, because we thought perhaps

00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.999
there might be some way that we can
negotiate some form of a timber sale

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:39.999
that would meet the interests
of all the parties concerned.

00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.999
Todd had been one of the few
environmental activists

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.999
living in the county. But he had left

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:54.999
and when Melinda and I asked him to come to a meeting
and he was reluctant. You\'d had some bad memories.

00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:59.999
And just realized that I needed to get out of here
and get some help for stress problem and I knew kind

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.999
of what was going on, but I
didn\'t know what to do about it

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.999
and that\'s why I realized if I didn\'t
do that probably commit suicide.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.999
I had 357 laid on my desk and I looked
down I knew I didn\'t want to use it,

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.999
needed to be so and I had
a chance to take off.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:28.000
[music]

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.999
I have a lot of respect for the
stances and catch in county state.

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:39.999
Todd\'s employer the Southwest Center for Biological
Diversity is the main environmental group

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.999
that has sued the forest so to
shut down all logging and grazing

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:49.999
in New Mexico and Arizona. There
was no salvage sale on the Gil.

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.999
But Todd continued to come to meetings.
The group was making progress.

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.999
Beginning to talk more about
their visions and values

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.999
and at least for the time being suspending
their stereotypes and value judgment.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:09.999
The bank is roughly 7-8 feet tall. It\'s
for the most part made up of fine soil.

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.999
It is made up of soils that built up
over hundreds of years literally.

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.999
The group decided to move from a dialogue or
talking group to an action group, organizing tours

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:24.999
so that people could go on the
ground and try to educate each other

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.999
about conditions of the range and forest. At
the Gila and the upper end of the valley,

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.999
the beginning of the farm. They decided to visit the
Gila Valley in Grant County. Were another group

00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:39.999
of ranchers and environmentalists had been
talking and working on projects together.

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:44.999
I know from the Red Sea community standpoint they looked down at the
spring course and they see all that clover and all that green down there

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:49.999
and its production they wanted. And the environmentalists
look out and just say oh it\'s a water-filter,

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.999
its habitat, it\'s a bedroom for
all the sleeping creditors.

00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.999
But as a result of this conversation
that\'s gone on for a year and a half,

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.999
we have large areas of this clover.

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:09.999
There\'s about a half mile of it
just below here owned by a man

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.999
with a lot of hungry cows
desperately needs it.

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.999
He\'s not grazing it. Not grazing it. I think the group
is beginning to see how they might be able to integrate

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.999
the diverse interests of the group,
both forest health interests

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.999
as well as economic interests.
And things became

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:34.999
a little bit more tense However, after an
incident that took place in Eager Arizona.

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.999
[sil.]

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.999
It\'s unfortunate I guess
it\'s poster out there.

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.999
Set it gives the idea that it
was public meeting (inaudible)

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:54.999
from day one to talk about strategies to sue the forest service.
I went back and sat by Jerk and I said Jerk did you know

00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.999
this is a close meeting. He said
I\'m not here forest service.

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.999
I said well you\'re not a rancher and
you are not involved (inaudible)

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:09.999
and so it\'s close meaning. I then asked
him to leave, he got up voluntarily

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.999
and walked out of the room.
I went to the courthouse.

00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.999
And I\'ve read a announcement of a meeting.

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:24.999
Chuck is Chuck Oliver a Forest Service officer who had
been a member of the citizens group from the outside.

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:29.999
He had seen a sign posted at the Catherine
County courthouse announcing a meeting

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.999
to be held in Eager Arizona just
over the state law. Chuck said

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:39.999
he had assumed it was an open meeting. Since
the poster was on the courthouse window

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.999
and the meeting was at the Eager school.
Somebody started out by (inaudible)

00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:49.999
I have four or five different people grabbing
my arms and shoulders and pushing from behind.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:54.999
I got to the door and I stopped.
Somebody who\'s kicking at the back

00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:59.999
of my calves pushing out. Another
guy was on the side of my head,

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.999
another guy grabbed My ear and (inaudible)
in my ear, another guy bit my finger off,

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:09.999
it wasn\'t as simple as (inaudible) out.
I think this has absolutely no place

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:14.999
in this community at all and we have we should
have zero tolerance for that as a group.

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.999
It doesn\'t invite me as a citizen to go to that group.
I mean I wonder what would have happened if I showed.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:24.999
Most of us who were in the middle.
So I think the point of prevention

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:29.999
is the arrogance on the part of the person
to place that sign in a public position

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.999
and mentor interpreted as now
this is a closed society.

00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.999
I think if people are going to
do meetings, discuss litigation

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.999
we don\'t propose (inaudible).
That\'s one way to go violence

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:49.999
no matter how you look at it.
You don\'t need violence

00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:54.999
and you don\'t need people being treated bad. I think
it might be productive in this group to talk about

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:59.999
in the future. (inaudible) might you prevent something
like this from happening and are there some

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.999
ground rules for how you might
want to interact with each other

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.999
in similar situations. Something
like this may happen again.

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:14.999
Chuck was there with good intentions

00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.999
and I think also on UBs part we hear
and when he says he had no part

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:24.999
or no knowledge of the violence and I think
it\'s important to hear those two issues

00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:29.999
and believe those people when they say
that they are speaking the truth.

00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.999
That\'s what we hold these meetings.
Getting through the Eager incident

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.999
felt like a milestone for the group. There
was a sense of accomplishment, it came from

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.999
working through difficult.

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:49.999
The increased sense of comfort
brought another reason

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:54.999
to come to meetings. There was always
delicious food, Margie, McCain,

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:59.999
green chilly, and Chelada and
freshly made pongs. There was elk

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:04.999
and red chili stew and new garden vegetables and there
were actually ranchers eating a Laden\'s tofu (inaudible).

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:13.000
[sil.]

00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:19.999
Its safe to say that tofu will not
become a tradition in Catherine County.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:24.999
The traditions here have long taproot

00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.999
found in the tough Lang. I
was getting a civics lesson,

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.999
a lesson in localism. I had
been coming here long enough

00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.999
to watch this people built a new head
system for their community. I had listened

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:44.999
to them debate about how the health of their
county have been affected by their disagreements

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:49.999
and I was learning like caring
for the land, establishing trust

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.999
and making peace is in beauty.

00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.999
[sil.]

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:04.999
The group decided they wanted to accomplish
something together. Mike and Chuck

00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:09.999
arranged a tour of potential projects in
the Gila forest. Here\'s the fire base

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:14.999
and here is private land
involving (inaudible).

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:19.999
In preparation they looked at aerial
photos of the Gila from the 30s

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:24.999
and compared them to recent view. It was obvious
encroachments of pine forest on grassland.

00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.999
If you can see all this area
out here, this is referred

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.999
to as the t-bar grasslands and
what we\'ve got happening here

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:39.999
and we walked from the cars
out through these trees,

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.999
all we\'ve got happening
here is the Ponderosa pine

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:49.999
encroaching on the grasslands. Basically
what\'s happened is we\'re losing the grasslands

00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:54.999
that historically were here. To me this is

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.999
just perfect where we come in here and get the
smaller tree. These trees they want to get rid of

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.999
and everybody is happy. I mean
I could relook at employee

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:09.999
in probably 20 to 30 local
people right there,

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:14.999
plus everything that goes with it. Chuck explained
it in a way that made little sense to me

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.999
last night saying that you are approaching
this from a diversity standpoint

00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:24.999
and kind of maintain a diverse

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.999
set of indifferent kinds of ecosystems in the in the
larger ecosystem and it makes a lot of sense to me.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:34.999
It seems like a good approach.
Any project we have,

00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:39.999
if we\'ve got the support of the community

00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:44.999
the chances of that project being
held up for other reasons are

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:49.999
I wouldn\'t say eliminated, but minimized greatly
and then when there\'s interference from

00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:54.999
people outside this group,

00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:59.999
then the group bands together and
says hey we\'ve looked at this,

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:04.999
we think this is the right way to manage this
piece of land and this is where we want to go.

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.999
To me that this is the future
of public land management.

00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.999
In the two day Gila trip we met Don Column.
He was rounding upstairs.

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.999
I think it\'s been managed
whoever yells the loudest.

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:24.999
Whatever the crisis is. The forest services
bogged down and crisis management,

00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:29.999
every day it\'s a new crisis. A spotted owl, little
flycatcher, some timber sale has been shut down.

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.999
All their money is tied up in court battles and
everything trying to get over this endangered species

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:39.999
that has shutting everything down. That\'s
all they work out. It\'s one crisis one day.

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.999
Another crisis the next day, in the mean
time everything\'s going to pod out here.

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.999
I mean that\'s my opinion, but I live out here.
I\'ve been here 20 years and I see what\'s going on.

00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:54.999
In the future of public lands
management it would serve us well

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:59.999
if groups of people were to walk and
talk together on the land and listen

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:04.999
to people who know it well.
An agreement was reached

00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.999
in the Gila that day, an agreement
to mark trees for thinning.

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:14.999
Six months later in the early
summer the group returned.

00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:19.999
Don Weaver a forester whose knowledge
and experience everyone trusted

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.999
had marked the trees that would be cut.
Everyone agreed

00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:29.999
the thinning would improve forest
health and prevent devastating fires

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.999
by restoring the forest which
historically more open environment.

00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:39.999
The sticking point was the
diameter of the timber.

00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:44.999
Todd said that the Southwest
Center could not abide timber

00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:49.999
over 16 inches in diameter being removed. Even though
that was not necessarily the best prescription

00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.999
in terms of forest health. Everyone was able
however to come to agreement around that.

00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:59.999
There were no official documents on.
There were handshakes

00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:04.999
which seemed all the better for the place.

00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:13.000
[sil.]

00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:19.999
It will be difficult to move from
the old West to the next West.

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:24.999
People who live and work on
the land do not part lightly

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:29.999
with their customs and their values.
The future of rural communities

00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:34.999
should not be a question of
people versus cows or trees.

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.999
But rather what is best for the
health of whole community systems.

00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:48.000
[music]

00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.999
For the first time in
six years Larry Holiday

00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:09.999
will cut trees in the Gila National Forest.
Larry is logging

00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:14.999
for the health of the forest and for the
well-being of the people who live here.

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.999
Working in Catherine County I\'ve realized
that community will come together

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.999
when its health is threat. It\'s
physical health, it\'s economic health,

00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.999
its environmental health. And
health can be used as a catalyst

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.999
for communities to find ways to
sustain themselves to make peace.

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:40.000
[music]