WEBVTT

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Barbie was not the type that needed to engage in torture.

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Not that he was adamantly opposed to it,

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that it appeared to him to be immoral

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but our impression was he didn\'t need to

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\'cause he was a damn skillful, shrewd interrogate.

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(Marcel mumbles)
I remember one case

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but I don\'t remember again

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how he got the information,

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it was very important information,

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had it worked where he brought in information to the effect

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that the present Chief of the Bavarian Communist Party,

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for all of Bavaria, had survived in the West

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because he had worked for Gestapo in Germany.

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I should have sent Barbie; it might have worked.

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Flew down to Munich and practically blackmailed

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the man, but I didn\'t.

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You should\'ve Barbie, it would have been

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a better decision?
I think I should.

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I think he\'d have been much better recruiter,

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but I was fearful of doing so.

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Well, I think I thought, perhaps, the level was a little

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bit too high and it might\'ve been too much of an insult

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to have sent an ex-Gestapo individual down

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to make the threat, offer, or whatever it was.

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Anyway, it didn\'t work.

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I\'m afraid a week or so later, the whole thing

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was in the Communist Newspaper.

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CIC tries to blackmail KPD leader so-and-so,

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I\'ve forgotten the man\'s name.

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And of course the man paid the price because

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a few weeks after that, he--

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Disappeared.

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Another one of Stalin\'s victims.

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The one thing that I recall was that he found out

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that the Russians were mining uranium ore

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and now they\'re gonna have an atomic bomb.

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And they did get one in \'49.

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That\'s an important piece of information.

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That was very important for us and we knew

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the exact location in the town of Aue,

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A-U-E.
Czechoslovakia.

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It\'s on the border of Czechoslovakia and Saxony there,

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upper Saxony.

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So that was important.

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That was one bit of information, I recall--

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So you sent that up?

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That\'s my job, I send that all up--

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But you were happy to get that?

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Of course.

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In fact, I did get a promotion in the next three months.

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I went from a nine to a 10 or something like that,

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and it\'s $1500 more.
Because of that?

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Earhart Dabringhaus was not really an agent

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or a controlling agent, he never controlled anybody.

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He is what we call a housekeeping agent,

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and those were people who took care of safe houses,

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took care of the feeding, the payment,

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and other support that a source might need,

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like Barbie.
Sure.

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That is my recollection.

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The files, as concerned, was his primary role.

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Yeah, but no, no, excuse me,

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there is a contradiction because here in the memo

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of May 11th, 1950,

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you say in June 1948 when control of the net

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was taken over by Special Agent Earhart Dabringhaus.

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Did I say that?

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Yes, you did.
Mm-hmm, okay.

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I stand corrected, my memory\'s off.

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All right, no big deal.

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In \'83, you were the first one to--

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To identify Barbie as a former informant for CIC.

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Call it blow the whistle or whatever.

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He was the man who called the news organization

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and said, \"Klaus Barbie used to work

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\"for the U.S. government.\"

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I mean, it\'s a fact.

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But it doesn\'t, it neither endears me or repels me.

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I am much more interested in the,

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what the fact was.
How accurate it was.

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Yes, yes, what the fact was.

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You don\'t seem to like him though.

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I don\'t think Dabringhaus was very credible.

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You\'re not Jewish, you\'re German, German.

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Not at all, no, no I\'m not Jewish.

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They always asked me that too because--

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Naturally.
You\'re supposed to be Jewish

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in order to be anti-Nazi.
If you\'re a whistleblower.

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That\'s right.

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If you whistle blow on the CIC,

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there\'s a strong suspicion that you

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must be secretly Jewish.
That I\'m Jewish.

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No.

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I\'m as Kraut as they\'d come and we are Lutheran

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from Essen, Germany, the Ruhr Valley.

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My father was long time, a Krupp steel worker

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and there is no Jewish blood anywhere in our family.

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But I think Barbie got the wrong idea about me

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when we penetrated the Communist cell in Augsburg.

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That\'s when Barbie found out that he couldn\'t trust me

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because I knew the first verse

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of the Communist National Anthem in German.

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There\'s no American that knows that in German, you know.

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That\'s right.

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So he must\'ve thought, oh my god, this guy\'s a Commie,

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so I gotta be careful of him.

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And I think he passed that on up to our headquarters.

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Boy.

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It must\'ve laid a bomb right there, stink bomb.

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And I think that\'s is still in Ryan\'s idea,

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or in Browning\'s idea, that I was left of center, you know.

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What did think of Dabringhaus\'

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whistle blowing?

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Well I guess my feeling was that he was trying

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to protect himself.

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I think that he was trying to blow the whistle

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so that he could at least get credit for blowing a whistle.

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They thought that I was making America look bad

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in reference to France because they now had

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to admit that they hid information

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so long, and they should\'ve told the French after all,

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I think that we\'re allies and friends.

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The United States apologized to the French government.

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Yes.
As a result

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of the Ryan report and I guess on the recommendation

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of the Ryan report.
Yes.

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You recommended that they do so.

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Yes, yes.

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That\'s a very spectacular act isn\'t it?

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Very unusual.
Unprecedented.

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Unprecedented.

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And it just, the idea of an apology just,

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occurred to me as the right and decent thing to do.

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It would give some tangible expression to the fact,

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that we recognized our wrongdoing.

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How come the administration followed you,

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so easily on this,

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the very time that President Reagan,

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went to a military cemetery in Bitburn Germany,

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put flowers on the graves of those German soldiers,

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of the Wehrmacht and of the Waffen-SS?

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Didn\'t seem so terribly eager at the time,

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to take the militant anti-Nazi view did they?

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So how come the apology?

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It must have been the force of my brilliant argument.

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All the investigators that were on the Ryan report,

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seem to have been company officials.

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They\'re working for the government.

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And maybe the fact that they had to spend some money

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to get this investigative report on Barbie,

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and the U.S. government out,

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which must have cost considerable money,

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maybe they thought that I caused all that.

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Just the world is shot through-and-through,

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with moral ambiguities.

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And I feel very ambiguous

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about the moral aspects of the case.

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I don\'t like it.

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I\'ve never liked the idea

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of using Barbie, particularly,

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simply because we knew,

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there was no doubt about it,

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we knew he was a Gestapo agent.

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Merck told me the whole story

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about several very important resistance organizations

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that they were able to eliminate.

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Merck was glad that he got it off his chest and told me.

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\"Dabringhaus, if you knew what this guy

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\"had done in France, during the war,

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\"even Eisenhower wouldn\'t be able

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\"to protect him in Germany.\"

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General Eisenhower,

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the Supreme Allied Commander,

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gave the order of non-fraternization.

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No making friends.

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No human contact with the Germans,

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who by the war crimes they had committed,

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placed themselves outside of the society

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of civilized nations.

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In late March 1947,

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Kurt Merck brought to me a statement

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called the (speaks in foreign language) Rene Hardy.

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written by Klaus Barbie.

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This was the introduction that Merck gave me,

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so that I would talk to Barbie.

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I see, I see.

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I mean--
This Rene Hardy thing?

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Rene Hardy thing.
I see.

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When you were talking to Barbie about Hardy,

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he admitted that he had turned Hardy.

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Yes, mm-hmm.

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Boasted about it as a matter of fact.

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Right.

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Did you know at that point that Moulin

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had died under torture?

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I don\'t think so.

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I doubt it, that we knew it.

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Did you know that he was dead?

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I\'m not even sure of that.

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You\'re going back, 35, 40 years.

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I don\'t remember that.

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(triumphant music)

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I remember chiefly the key figure of Hardy

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as one of his most--

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Yes, but Hardy was brought to trial

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because of Jean Moulin\'s death.

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So surely the two things were connected.

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It was connected in the papers.

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I don\'t know--
It was connected

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in the demands for Barbie\'s testimony.

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It was connected perhaps in the papers,

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but you have,

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again you have to go back to the situation in Germany,

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in the late \'40s.

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You didn\'t read French papers.

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We didn\'t get any newspapers.

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The newspapers we got were the Stars and Stripes.

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But intelligence people

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are supposed to read newspapers.

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Yes of course,

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but we were not reading French newspapers.

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(interviewer mumbles)

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We were reading the Herald Tribune.

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I don\'t know if it appeared in the Herald Tribune,

225
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the he\'d been...

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But, anyhow--

227
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It\'s a matter of language,

228
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in the paper\'s that you read? (mumbles)

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Yes, well, we got the Stars and Stripes.

230
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The resistance fighters or something like that,

231
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through newspaper articles,

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started demanding that he brought to account.

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That much we heard and that\'s when I had to reply to--

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Why do you call them something like that?

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Pardon?
Why do you call them

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something like that?

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What of it?

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Oh, you said,

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resistance fighters or something like that.

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Well--

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Something like what?

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As a political scientist,

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I like to know what\'s the politics of this outfit.

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What kind of political group are they?

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And I have my strong suspicions what they are.

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Commies.

247
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Yes, no doubt.

248
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The French were sending

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repeated requests to the Americans for Barbie.

250
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They were misspelling his name.

251
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They were giving incorrect addresses.

252
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And they were getting nowhere.

253
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And people at--

254
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You think they were getting nowhere

255
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on purpose, since they actually came--

256
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Yes, I suspect that\'s the case.

257
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If they wanted to get Barbie,

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it seems to me they could have done it

259
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much more intelligently than they did.

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The same way of these two French officers

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from (speaks in foreign language),

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they come to talk to me in Augsburg.

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They don\'t tell me,

264
00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.350
hey listen, if you know where Barbie is,

265
00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:42.570
he\'s a war criminal.

266
00:11:42.570 --> 00:11:44.590
He\'s killed thousands of Frenchmen.

267
00:11:44.590 --> 00:11:45.423
They don\'t say that?
They don\'t say that.

268
00:11:45.423 --> 00:11:47.550
They say how do you like our French wine?

269
00:11:47.550 --> 00:11:48.882
I say I love it.

270
00:11:48.882 --> 00:11:50.900
(speaking foreign language), you know?

271
00:11:50.900 --> 00:11:54.190
And two, four minutes later, they say,

272
00:11:54.190 --> 00:11:56.430
well I\'m sorry you don\'t know where he is.

273
00:11:56.430 --> 00:11:57.263
Thank you very much.

274
00:11:57.263 --> 00:11:58.096
And they leave.

275
00:11:58.096 --> 00:11:59.560
Like nice gentlemen.
Really?

276
00:11:59.560 --> 00:12:00.850
They weren\'t pushing me to,

277
00:12:00.850 --> 00:12:03.330
I think, and I told my wife this,

278
00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:05.510
if they had come to me at that time,

279
00:12:05.510 --> 00:12:08.040
and said, listen Dabringhaus,

280
00:12:08.040 --> 00:12:11.020
you\'re working with a real number one war criminal,

281
00:12:11.020 --> 00:12:13.233
and I know how many guys he\'d killed,

282
00:12:14.290 --> 00:12:16.500
I think I would have gotten up and said okay,

283
00:12:16.500 --> 00:12:19.910
to hell with my CIC, let\'s go get him,

284
00:12:19.910 --> 00:12:21.840
and you can have him.

285
00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:22.700
I would\'ve done it.

286
00:12:22.700 --> 00:12:23.640
I probably would have.

287
00:12:23.640 --> 00:12:25.180
Because I\'d already learned,

288
00:12:25.180 --> 00:12:28.090
by that time, from Kurt Merck

289
00:12:28.090 --> 00:12:31.130
that he once strung up 200 Frenchmen by their thumbs,

290
00:12:31.130 --> 00:12:32.240
until he was dead.

291
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:34.710
Repeatedly we made Barbie available.

292
00:12:34.710 --> 00:12:36.950
And when the trial of...

293
00:12:38.010 --> 00:12:38.890
Was it--
Rene Hardy.

294
00:12:38.890 --> 00:12:40.010
Rene Hardy, yes,

295
00:12:40.010 --> 00:12:43.081
when that trial came up in Paris,

296
00:12:43.081 --> 00:12:45.070
Lieutenant Whiteway came to us and said

297
00:12:45.070 --> 00:12:48.220
that they wanted to use Barbie as a witness.

298
00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:51.500
And we said fine, we\'ll let you take him to Paris.

299
00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:54.120
We didn\'t know that he was condemned to death in absentia,

300
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:55.947
but then he came back and said,

301
00:12:55.947 --> 00:12:58.510
\"I can\'t guarantee that he will be returned.\"

302
00:12:58.510 --> 00:13:00.795
And he said, \"Forget the whole thing.

303
00:13:00.795 --> 00:13:02.290
\"We won\'t do it.\"

304
00:13:02.290 --> 00:13:04.500
The real major reason why

305
00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:06.880
we did not want to give Barbie up,

306
00:13:06.880 --> 00:13:09.460
was simply that he had recruited too many people.

307
00:13:09.460 --> 00:13:11.170
He knew names.

308
00:13:11.170 --> 00:13:14.370
And we, rightly or wrongly,

309
00:13:14.370 --> 00:13:17.600
suspected very strongly at the time,

310
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.630
that the French Intelligence Services

311
00:13:19.630 --> 00:13:23.540
had been thoroughly penetrated by Communist agents.

312
00:13:23.540 --> 00:13:25.930
And we were very, very fearful

313
00:13:25.930 --> 00:13:27.890
that the moment they got Barbie,

314
00:13:27.890 --> 00:13:29.500
their first interrogation task

315
00:13:29.500 --> 00:13:32.280
would not be his work against the resistance

316
00:13:32.280 --> 00:13:35.100
or his work in Leon, but rather his work for us,

317
00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:36.800
and what are the names of the people

318
00:13:36.800 --> 00:13:38.620
whom you have recruited?

319
00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:40.330
And that we could not afford to do.

320
00:13:40.330 --> 00:13:42.510
Sometime in the summer of 1949,

321
00:13:42.510 --> 00:13:44.660
before I left Germany,

322
00:13:44.660 --> 00:13:46.640
we got ahold of a press clipping,

323
00:13:46.640 --> 00:13:49.230
from a French newspaper,

324
00:13:49.230 --> 00:13:52.560
alleging some horrible atrocities to Barbie.

325
00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:55.660
And we seized on this as the ammunition we needed

326
00:13:55.660 --> 00:13:58.630
to get rid of Barbie finally.

327
00:13:58.630 --> 00:14:02.103
After the French newspaper reports began,

328
00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:05.830
there was an order that came from CIC Central,

329
00:14:07.060 --> 00:14:10.177
to you, that said, \"Interrogate Barbie

330
00:14:10.177 --> 00:14:11.822
\"about the allegations that he used torture.\"

331
00:14:11.822 --> 00:14:13.950
Yes, I remember that.

332
00:14:13.950 --> 00:14:15.140
What did you do?

333
00:14:15.140 --> 00:14:17.290
I (coughing) interrogated him.

334
00:14:17.290 --> 00:14:19.230
Not directly, in terms of,

335
00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:21.850
he sits there and I sit across at my desk

336
00:14:21.850 --> 00:14:22.683
and then I interrogate him,

337
00:14:22.683 --> 00:14:25.160
like any prisoner or suspect, et cetera.

338
00:14:25.160 --> 00:14:27.450
But did once or twice or maybe more,

339
00:14:27.450 --> 00:14:31.270
go down to a bierstube and have some good bratwurst

340
00:14:31.270 --> 00:14:32.960
and beer or something of that sort, oh yeah.

341
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:34.540
And certainly that was the form

342
00:14:34.540 --> 00:14:36.330
for example of the so called,

343
00:14:36.330 --> 00:14:38.410
what I call the discrete interrogation.

344
00:14:38.410 --> 00:14:40.401
That kind of technique you know, over a few beers.

345
00:14:40.401 --> 00:14:41.370
That\'s what I would have thought,

346
00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:42.700
during the bratwurst.

347
00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:45.180
That\'s where the interrogation would be most effective.

348
00:14:45.180 --> 00:14:46.840
Of course, that kind of thing, yeah.

349
00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:49.070
But I never got the impression

350
00:14:49.070 --> 00:14:51.630
that he was really guilty of atrocities.

351
00:14:51.630 --> 00:14:53.160
What does the phrase,

352
00:14:53.160 --> 00:14:56.110
dropping Barbie, quote, administratively,

353
00:14:56.110 --> 00:14:57.110
as an informant.

354
00:14:57.110 --> 00:14:58.223
What does that mean?

355
00:15:00.760 --> 00:15:04.350
Well the idea was that he would be terminated

356
00:15:04.350 --> 00:15:08.120
as an informant but we didn\'t want him

357
00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:09.810
to be cut off completely.

358
00:15:09.810 --> 00:15:12.310
Isn\'t that more hypocrisy than compromise?

359
00:15:12.310 --> 00:15:15.540
Well I thought it was wrong but I...

360
00:15:15.540 --> 00:15:17.060
Any sleepless nights?

361
00:15:17.060 --> 00:15:18.310
No.
No.

362
00:15:18.310 --> 00:15:20.640
No, I didn\'t lose any sleep over this.

363
00:15:20.640 --> 00:15:24.460
I mean I felt it was wrong and I regretted having to do it,

364
00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:28.660
but it was just...

365
00:15:28.660 --> 00:15:29.550
Part of the job.

366
00:15:29.550 --> 00:15:30.410
Part of the job.

367
00:15:30.410 --> 00:15:31.800
This type of subterfuge

368
00:15:31.800 --> 00:15:33.400
in the written record, was this routine?

369
00:15:33.400 --> 00:15:34.390
No, no, no.

370
00:15:34.390 --> 00:15:35.550
It\'s unusual.

371
00:15:35.550 --> 00:15:37.400
\'Cause the case of Barbie was unusual.

372
00:15:37.400 --> 00:15:38.233
Not only Barbie,

373
00:15:38.233 --> 00:15:40.430
there were many in that case.

374
00:15:40.430 --> 00:15:41.263
Tip of the iceberg?

375
00:15:41.263 --> 00:15:42.960
Tip of the iceberg?

376
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.150
Many.
Barbie?

377
00:15:44.150 --> 00:15:46.530
Barbie is the tip of the iceberg.

378
00:15:46.530 --> 00:15:51.150
I ran into so many illegally living German Nazis,

379
00:15:51.150 --> 00:15:54.440
whom we shielded while they were still in Germany.

380
00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:55.830
If they were doing it in Memmingen

381
00:15:55.830 --> 00:15:58.880
and Augsburg, what makes you suppose they weren\'t doing

382
00:15:58.880 --> 00:16:00.260
it in Munich or Frankfurt?

383
00:16:00.260 --> 00:16:03.520
I think they were doing it in Munich and Frankfurt.

384
00:16:03.520 --> 00:16:05.540
I don\'t think Barbie was exceptional.

385
00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:08.420
I am not, in any sense, trying to minimize

386
00:16:08.420 --> 00:16:11.410
the responsibility of the United States government.

387
00:16:11.410 --> 00:16:13.300
I thought I made that quite clear in my report.

388
00:16:13.300 --> 00:16:15.570
But at the same time, one has to recognize

389
00:16:15.570 --> 00:16:18.363
that the High Commissioner,

390
00:16:19.330 --> 00:16:21.590
the U.S. High Commissioner for Germany,

391
00:16:21.590 --> 00:16:23.590
is not aware of the identities,

392
00:16:23.590 --> 00:16:25.150
let alone the day-to-day actions

393
00:16:25.150 --> 00:16:27.640
of every single spy that the United States employs,

394
00:16:27.640 --> 00:16:30.500
any more than the president today knows every spy

395
00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:31.333
that the CIA uses.

396
00:16:31.333 --> 00:16:32.620
Except that the name of Barbie

397
00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:34.420
was hitting the headlines in Paris,

398
00:16:34.420 --> 00:16:37.090
and that that one memo was exchanged between Washington,

399
00:16:37.090 --> 00:16:39.100
the State Department, and HICOG at the time.

400
00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:40.687
Why you would suppose that McCloy

401
00:16:40.687 --> 00:16:43.340
and also, even the social evenings spent

402
00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:45.130
with Andre Francois-Poncet,

403
00:16:45.130 --> 00:16:46.760
you would suppose that the name Barbie

404
00:16:46.760 --> 00:16:48.990
would come up in an ordinary conversation.

405
00:16:48.990 --> 00:16:51.262
It might have come up in ordinary conversation.

406
00:16:51.262 --> 00:16:56.262
And HICOG, under Mr. McCloy, specifically queried

407
00:16:58.460 --> 00:17:02.683
the Army intelligence as to what it knew about Klaus Barbie.

408
00:17:03.520 --> 00:17:08.520
And the director of intelligence for the Army said,

409
00:17:09.670 --> 00:17:12.050
untruthfully, Barbie used to work for us.

410
00:17:12.050 --> 00:17:12.960
He doesn\'t any more

411
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:14.100
We don\'t know where he is.

412
00:17:14.100 --> 00:17:15.530
If we find him, we\'ll let you know.

413
00:17:15.530 --> 00:17:18.420
The highest I had to go, I know, in my own region,

414
00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:21.390
in region 12 was to go to the commander once in a while,

415
00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:22.710
who really didn\'t give a damn.

416
00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:23.633
He didn\'t know anything about it.

417
00:17:23.633 --> 00:17:27.000
This was Major Riggins, who couldn\'t have cared less,

418
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.840
except his main credo was, do what you have to do

419
00:17:30.840 --> 00:17:32.520
but keep me out of trouble.

420
00:17:32.520 --> 00:17:33.353
Ah.

421
00:17:33.353 --> 00:17:35.420
But that is an instruction in intelligence, isn\'t it?

422
00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:36.870
That is an instruction, in a sense, yeah.

423
00:17:36.870 --> 00:17:38.090
Mr. Shute, do you think

424
00:17:38.090 --> 00:17:40.840
the American government was justified

425
00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:43.910
in this rather unusual step of apologizing

426
00:17:43.910 --> 00:17:46.120
to the French government after the publication

427
00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:47.163
of the Ryan report?

428
00:17:48.010 --> 00:17:49.110
Yes, I think it was,

429
00:17:49.110 --> 00:17:51.170
\'cause I think it was an arm

430
00:17:51.170 --> 00:17:52.170
on the American government,

431
00:17:52.170 --> 00:17:57.170
which consciously deceived the rest of us.

432
00:17:59.290 --> 00:18:00.327
The rest of us?

433
00:18:00.327 --> 00:18:01.870
The rest of us.

434
00:18:01.870 --> 00:18:05.230
When the State Department was being requested

435
00:18:05.230 --> 00:18:10.230
by the French government information about Barbie,

436
00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.780
sent a cable to McCloy: is Barbie in Germany?

437
00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:18.110
And McCloy sent it to me, and I asked the Army

438
00:18:18.110 --> 00:18:20.210
and the counter-intelligence people

439
00:18:20.210 --> 00:18:22.560
what they knew about it, because they were the ones

440
00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:24.130
that would know those things.

441
00:18:24.130 --> 00:18:26.760
I had no basis for finding out myself, really.

442
00:18:26.760 --> 00:18:31.600
You seem, well, I would say, almost militant about a man

443
00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:34.770
called Benjamin Shute, who was, of course,

444
00:18:34.770 --> 00:18:37.300
the civilian chief of intelligence.

445
00:18:37.300 --> 00:18:38.553
McCloy\'s director of--

446
00:18:38.553 --> 00:18:39.386
McCloy\'s--
Yes.

447
00:18:39.386 --> 00:18:42.490
And who did conduct an investigation

448
00:18:42.490 --> 00:18:45.083
when the charges came up.

449
00:18:46.110 --> 00:18:51.110
We\'ve talked to Shute, and they had suggested

450
00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:53.420
that he\'s less militant than you are.

451
00:18:53.420 --> 00:18:56.563
All he says is he doesn\'t remember this.

452
00:18:56.563 --> 00:18:58.520
I don\'t remember knowing that ever.

453
00:18:58.520 --> 00:19:00.940
And I don\'t remember noticing in the Ryan report.

454
00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:02.640
What am I to Benjamin Shute?

455
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.070
What is he to me?
I don\'t know.

456
00:19:04.070 --> 00:19:04.903
Nothing.

457
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.280
Shute was the director of intelligence.

458
00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:11.560
He was not a name that I have come across before or since.

459
00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:15.373
He is one of the actors in the drama.

460
00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:17.573
Had he been--

461
00:19:17.573 --> 00:19:19.664
He\'s the cut-off point in the hierarchy, though.

462
00:19:19.664 --> 00:19:21.250
That\'s precisely the point.

463
00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:23.890
What did you do with the knowledge

464
00:19:23.890 --> 00:19:28.330
that they had just cut off relations with Barbie?

465
00:19:28.330 --> 00:19:30.940
He doesn\'t remember that coming up.

466
00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:32.200
I don\'t remember that coming up.

467
00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:33.170
I really don\'t.

468
00:19:33.170 --> 00:19:34.420
Wouldn\'t it seem reasonable

469
00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:36.160
for civilian intelligence to say, well,

470
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.650
if you\'ve been employing this guy for the last three years,

471
00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:39.880
where does he live?

472
00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:40.910
Where does he hang out?

473
00:19:40.910 --> 00:19:42.160
Who\'s his sister?

474
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:44.880
Where would he go if he has, quote unquote, disappeared?

475
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.820
Mm-hm. Sure.

476
00:19:46.820 --> 00:19:47.653
But they didn\'t,

477
00:19:47.653 --> 00:19:48.641
or there\'s no indication that they did.

478
00:19:48.641 --> 00:19:49.474
They didn\'t.

479
00:19:49.474 --> 00:19:51.900
No, more than no indication; they didn\'t.

480
00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:53.120
I\'m quite sure they didn\'t.
All they said

481
00:19:53.120 --> 00:19:55.040
under controlled ignorance.

482
00:19:55.040 --> 00:19:55.873
Well--

483
00:19:55.873 --> 00:19:57.280
If that is not an example

484
00:19:57.280 --> 00:19:59.500
of controlled ignorance, then what is?

485
00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:01.770
It may well be, Marcel, a question

486
00:20:01.770 --> 00:20:02.866
of controlled ignorance.

487
00:20:02.866 --> 00:20:03.699
I\'m not...

488
00:20:05.017 --> 00:20:06.650
I\'m not denying that.

489
00:20:06.650 --> 00:20:08.000
But there is a, there is,

490
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.360
I mean, controlled ignorance is still ignorance.

491
00:20:12.360 --> 00:20:14.550
But I didn\'t really cross-examine them.

492
00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:16.490
\'Cause cross-examining

493
00:20:16.490 --> 00:20:18.350
wouldn\'t have done any good, anyway.

494
00:20:18.350 --> 00:20:20.070
You mean, they would have kept lying to you?

495
00:20:20.070 --> 00:20:20.990
Oh, sure.

496
00:20:20.990 --> 00:20:24.450
I came to the conclusion that, in fact, Shute was lied to

497
00:20:24.450 --> 00:20:26.600
and that Shute, based on everything he knew

498
00:20:26.600 --> 00:20:30.730
or could have known, had no reason

499
00:20:30.730 --> 00:20:32.680
to suspect he was being lied to.

500
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:35.240
Why would you have been so uninterested?

501
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.581
Well, of course, it doesn\'t answer your question

502
00:20:37.581 --> 00:20:40.560
to say we weren\'t reading the French newspapers.

503
00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:42.343
That\'s an answer.
We weren\'t.

504
00:20:42.343 --> 00:20:43.555
I wasn\'t.

505
00:20:43.555 --> 00:20:45.719
I don\'t know whether anybody in McCloy\'s entourage

506
00:20:45.719 --> 00:20:50.719 line:15%
was or not.
(triumphant brass music)

507
00:21:09.230 --> 00:21:12.810
(crowd chatting)

508
00:21:12.810 --> 00:21:14.700
If you want to take a shot at John McCloy

509
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:17.120
in the United States these days, you have to get a number

510
00:21:17.120 --> 00:21:20.430
and stand in line, because he is being pilloried

511
00:21:20.430 --> 00:21:23.630
for the decision to bomb Hiroshima

512
00:21:23.630 --> 00:21:25.549
and the decision not to bomb the death camps at Auschwitz.

513
00:21:25.549 --> 00:21:28.300
Bomb the concentration camps.

514
00:21:28.300 --> 00:21:31.380
He is being criticized

515
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:35.930
for the internment of the Japanese--

516
00:21:35.930 --> 00:21:37.940
Indeed, yes.
And Americans in California.

517
00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:40.400
He is hardly a sacred cow.

518
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:43.650
I can assure the German people that they start

519
00:21:43.650 --> 00:21:48.380
on their journey attended by the great hope and goodwill

520
00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:50.810
of the people of the United States,

521
00:21:50.810 --> 00:21:53.060
who will follow the progress of the new government

522
00:21:53.060 --> 00:21:54.450
with the greatest interest.

523
00:21:54.450 --> 00:21:55.540
His priorities.
Why do you get stuck

524
00:21:55.540 --> 00:21:56.373
with buck?

525
00:21:56.373 --> 00:21:57.206
You do, don\'t you?

526
00:21:57.206 --> 00:21:59.960
I mean, it\'s your level that gets interviewed.

527
00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:01.400
Yes.
Nobody\'s interviewed

528
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:02.700
McCloy, as far as I know.

529
00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:04.190
Well, because by the top level,

530
00:22:04.190 --> 00:22:05.870
it was basically a question of,

531
00:22:05.870 --> 00:22:08.910
do we want to approve or disapprove what Kolb

532
00:22:08.910 --> 00:22:11.760
and his people down in Augsburg are doing?

533
00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:14.410
But we were operating completely with the knowledge

534
00:22:14.410 --> 00:22:15.690
of our headquarters.

535
00:22:15.690 --> 00:22:17.380
Does history really care, today,

536
00:22:17.380 --> 00:22:18.810
whether it was General Taylor,

537
00:22:18.810 --> 00:22:20.500
or whether it was John McCloy,

538
00:22:20.500 --> 00:22:23.760
or whether it was Lieutenant Kolb

539
00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:25.040
who made the final decisions?

540
00:22:25.040 --> 00:22:26.580
I think the point that has to be made

541
00:22:26.580 --> 00:22:28.940
is that these were conscious decisions,

542
00:22:28.940 --> 00:22:30.590
made by the United States government,

543
00:22:30.590 --> 00:22:32.590
in the course of occupying Germany.

544
00:22:32.590 --> 00:22:37.590
We want peace and prosperity for the world as a whole.

545
00:22:38.260 --> 00:22:39.970
We want to see the time come

546
00:22:40.840 --> 00:22:44.070
when we can do the things in peace

547
00:22:44.070 --> 00:22:47.550
that we have been able to do in war.

548
00:22:47.550 --> 00:22:49.203
That\'s what we propose to do.

549
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.120
I didn\'t know he paid his way to Bolivia.

550
00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:54.150
I heard about the ratline.

551
00:22:54.150 --> 00:22:57.140
I knew it only as the monastery route.

552
00:22:57.140 --> 00:22:59.400
We had several names for it, you know?

553
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.260
We used it sometimes.

554
00:23:01.260 --> 00:23:02.510
It\'s a monastery route

555
00:23:02.510 --> 00:23:04.798
because there were several priests involved.

556
00:23:04.798 --> 00:23:05.972
Yeah, Draganovic.

557
00:23:05.972 --> 00:23:07.697
Draganovic, and there were Hudal,

558
00:23:07.697 --> 00:23:11.050
and a few other bishops, or something like that, in Rome.

559
00:23:11.050 --> 00:23:12.237
And when you knew it as the monastery route?

560
00:23:12.237 --> 00:23:14.530
Oh, we--
And you used it?

561
00:23:14.530 --> 00:23:15.450
Not me, personally.
No (mumbles).

562
00:23:15.450 --> 00:23:18.450
But we, the American intelligence, used it.

563
00:23:18.450 --> 00:23:19.360
We know that.

564
00:23:19.360 --> 00:23:22.550
If John McCloy had called up the commanding general

565
00:23:22.550 --> 00:23:26.220
and said, get Klaus Barbie, and get him up,

566
00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:28.330
and put him on the carpet in front of my desk

567
00:23:28.330 --> 00:23:32.450
by next Tuesday morning or you\'re gonna

568
00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:36.563
be running a stockade in Fort Huachuca, Arizona,

569
00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:39.160
of course it would have happened.

570
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:40.140
Of course it would have happened.

571
00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:42.300
The Army was subordinate to the military,

572
00:23:42.300 --> 00:23:44.360
to the civilian authority over there,

573
00:23:44.360 --> 00:23:45.710
and it would have happened.

574
00:23:46.910 --> 00:23:49.770
In fact, although McCloy probably didn\'t realize it,

575
00:23:49.770 --> 00:23:51.600
he could have told the Army to have Klaus Barbie

576
00:23:51.600 --> 00:23:56.340
up here in 20 minutes and it could have happened.

577
00:23:56.340 --> 00:23:58.764
Sure, all of this could have happened.

578
00:23:58.764 --> 00:23:59.860
But it didn\'t.

579
00:23:59.860 --> 00:24:00.693
But it didn\'t.

580
00:24:00.693 --> 00:24:02.459
It didn\'t.
(cheerful fife music)

581
00:24:02.459 --> 00:24:05.440
Now, now where do we go from there?

582
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.023
(jet rumbling)

583
00:24:09.687 --> 00:24:14.270
(children singing in foreign language)

584
00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:19.210
You are familiar with the term, the ratline?

585
00:24:19.210 --> 00:24:21.936
No, that is a misnomer.

586
00:24:21.936 --> 00:24:22.907
Yes, but you\'ve heard the term, yes?

587
00:24:22.907 --> 00:24:24.330
Yes, yes, yes.

588
00:24:24.330 --> 00:24:26.920
I assume that you don\'t believe

589
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:28.463
that it was a line for rats?

590
00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:31.192
No, not at all used.

591
00:24:31.192 --> 00:24:34.473
It was invention of the guy, post-factum.

592
00:24:38.268 --> 00:24:39.800
And you don\'t agree with that description

593
00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:42.110
of your activities?
Well, it is outrageous.

594
00:24:42.110 --> 00:24:43.970
It is offensive, it is...

595
00:24:43.970 --> 00:24:45.400
Well, explain why, please.

596
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:47.180
Well, it is derogatory.

597
00:24:47.180 --> 00:24:48.930
Father Draganovic supplied

598
00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:50.970
the documents for Barbie?

599
00:24:50.970 --> 00:24:55.970
Yes, he was chief organizer of the enterprise.

600
00:24:57.530 --> 00:25:00.850
And the Americans came to him, to Rome,

601
00:25:00.850 --> 00:25:05.850
to ask him to do services of sending out of Europe,

602
00:25:06.620 --> 00:25:11.090
people who American intelligence services

603
00:25:11.090 --> 00:25:13.300
wanted to send out of Europe.

604
00:25:13.300 --> 00:25:15.260
How did they approach him?

605
00:25:15.260 --> 00:25:16.140
Oh, it was simple.

606
00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:20.410
He was public person, living in the Croatian seminary

607
00:25:20.410 --> 00:25:23.970
in Rome, for priests, and therefore, American services

608
00:25:23.970 --> 00:25:27.730
from Salzburg, CIC, could contact him

609
00:25:27.730 --> 00:25:30.466
through different intermediaries in Rome.

610
00:25:30.466 --> 00:25:34.720
Draganovic was the main outside organizer,

611
00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:39.720
and the one who procured all documents, and bank affairs,

612
00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:46.280
and similar things, because I myself

613
00:25:46.280 --> 00:25:48.903
was under no protection, was stateless.

614
00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:54.740
He was a priest, and a priest robes

615
00:25:54.740 --> 00:25:59.096
always protect somebody to some extent, like in New York.

616
00:25:59.096 --> 00:25:59.929
(children singing in foreign language)

617
00:25:59.929 --> 00:26:03.770
The Pope, Pius XII, was very much upset

618
00:26:03.770 --> 00:26:07.570
by Europe falling to the communism

619
00:26:07.570 --> 00:26:12.050
and was eager to help everybody who needed help.

620
00:26:12.050 --> 00:26:15.670
The secretariat of state, Monsignor Montini,

621
00:26:15.670 --> 00:26:17.970
future Pope Paul VI,

622
00:26:17.970 --> 00:26:22.740
would send people with his recommendation for help.

623
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:25.680
Mm-hmm, did this included SS?

624
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:30.680
I never personally asked anybody anything who ever came.

625
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:38.200
Like in the most famous Catholic tradition:

626
00:26:39.170 --> 00:26:41.360
no questions asked.

627
00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:42.540
Well, you don\'t have a ratline

628
00:26:42.540 --> 00:26:46.160
that\'s created only for Klaus Barbie and used only for him.

629
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:47.570
We know it was used--
Be too expensive.

630
00:26:47.570 --> 00:26:48.403
It would be too expensive

631
00:26:48.403 --> 00:26:49.800
and it wouldn\'t have such a name.

632
00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:50.680
(both chuckling)

633
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:53.090
It\'s hard for me to believe that Barbie

634
00:26:53.090 --> 00:26:54.520
was an isolated incident.

635
00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:58.080
There is that segment of the Jews

636
00:26:58.080 --> 00:27:03.080
who would never stop before turning the last stone.

637
00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:09.940
And therefore, such Jews are helped by immense riches,

638
00:27:10.270 --> 00:27:13.920
in this country, want to prosecute Barbie.

639
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:15.250
You think they\'re vengeful people?

640
00:27:15.250 --> 00:27:17.010
Oh, yeah.
The revenge for what?

641
00:27:17.010 --> 00:27:21.380
To fabricate the crime,

642
00:27:21.380 --> 00:27:25.940
and then accuse somebody of having committed those crimes,

643
00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:27.560
and hang them.

644
00:27:27.560 --> 00:27:28.393
I see.

645
00:27:28.393 --> 00:27:30.960
Do you ever get the feeling, Miss Holtzman, that...

646
00:27:33.330 --> 00:27:37.920
Only Jews and old Nazis are still interested

647
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.143
in Jews and old Nazis?

648
00:27:40.990 --> 00:27:41.880
Actually, not.

649
00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:46.220
Actually, the whole problem of Nazi war criminals,

650
00:27:46.220 --> 00:27:49.230
for example, in America was brought to my attention

651
00:27:49.230 --> 00:27:54.230
by a non-Jew who was horrified as a human being

652
00:27:55.020 --> 00:27:57.070
that, for example, our government

653
00:27:57.070 --> 00:27:59.360
could protect Nazi war criminals living here,

654
00:27:59.360 --> 00:28:01.160
and allow them to stay here.

655
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:05.173
Among them is the former congressman Holtzmaster?

656
00:28:06.398 --> 00:28:07.231
Holtzman.

657
00:28:07.231 --> 00:28:08.064
Holtzman.

658
00:28:08.064 --> 00:28:10.420
Elizabeth Holtzman
Right, who started it,

659
00:28:10.420 --> 00:28:14.240
and now that she wants to run once more,

660
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.840
and in Brooklyn are those Jews who want to prosecute,

661
00:28:18.840 --> 00:28:23.620
persecute, Nazis and collaborators, and everything

662
00:28:23.620 --> 00:28:27.150
what comes under that roof, to the last end,

663
00:28:27.150 --> 00:28:31.383
until the last blood of them it is not, gone.

664
00:28:32.370 --> 00:28:34.630
There is a view that, somehow, the Holocaust

665
00:28:34.630 --> 00:28:39.630
is simply a Jewish problem, when indeed, the dangers

666
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:42.780
of the Holocaust were for millions of non-Jews as well.

667
00:28:42.780 --> 00:28:45.430
And the threat that it represents the world today

668
00:28:45.430 --> 00:28:48.210
is to all humanity, and not only Jews.

669
00:28:48.210 --> 00:28:51.220
The policies that gave rise to the use of someone

670
00:28:51.220 --> 00:28:54.670
like Klaus Barbie suggest that it could been

671
00:28:54.670 --> 00:28:55.640
much more widespread.

672
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:57.870
And indeed, if U.S. government officials

673
00:28:57.870 --> 00:29:00.340
are willing to bring Nazi murderers to our very shores,

674
00:29:00.340 --> 00:29:01.410
there\'s no reason to think they wouldn\'t

675
00:29:01.410 --> 00:29:02.890
have worked with them abroad.

676
00:29:02.890 --> 00:29:07.780
From that moment, Americans had nothing to do but to pay.

677
00:29:07.780 --> 00:29:11.610
And therefore, so much for documents, and transportation,

678
00:29:11.610 --> 00:29:12.687
and whatever money--

679
00:29:12.687 --> 00:29:14.330
You supplied the documents?

680
00:29:14.330 --> 00:29:15.430
Yes.

681
00:29:15.430 --> 00:29:18.910
In Augsburg, CIC in Augsburg,

682
00:29:18.910 --> 00:29:22.570
knew what CIC in Salzburg was doing.

683
00:29:22.570 --> 00:29:23.970
Neagoy went to Salzburg.

684
00:29:23.970 --> 00:29:25.590
Americans like to travel.

685
00:29:25.590 --> 00:29:27.609
And it is nice to overnight in Salzburg

686
00:29:27.609 --> 00:29:28.602
or Munich, you know that.

687
00:29:28.602 --> 00:29:29.778
On an expense account.

688
00:29:29.778 --> 00:29:31.673
An expense account.

689
00:29:31.673 --> 00:29:34.157
And there is never enough of it.

690
00:29:34.157 --> 00:29:37.213
And Neagoy told him, I\'ll bring you him,

691
00:29:37.213 --> 00:29:39.970
and then Altmann traveled, and in Genoa,

692
00:29:39.970 --> 00:29:42.170
Draganovic met him, whatever, you know.

693
00:29:42.170 --> 00:29:44.070
And George Neagoy, you knew him?

694
00:29:44.070 --> 00:29:45.210
Oh, yes, yes, very much.

695
00:29:45.210 --> 00:29:46.490
We\'ve been, we\'re good friends.

696
00:29:46.490 --> 00:29:49.040
He came as American intelligence and was

697
00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:54.130
about eager to hear

698
00:29:54.130 --> 00:29:57.050
what happened to such people, where they are,

699
00:29:57.050 --> 00:29:59.150
any problem, any problem with the police,

700
00:29:59.150 --> 00:30:00.570
any protection needed.

701
00:30:00.570 --> 00:30:01.403
No, no, no.
(Marcel mumbling)

702
00:30:01.403 --> 00:30:02.620
No, no, no, no, no.

703
00:30:02.620 --> 00:30:04.112
No pictures?

704
00:30:04.112 --> 00:30:05.570
Well, so sorry.

705
00:30:05.570 --> 00:30:06.660
Chris, didn\'t you explain

706
00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:07.826
that we\'re making a film.

707
00:30:07.826 --> 00:30:08.810
I know you said that.
I thought that I

708
00:30:08.810 --> 00:30:10.090
had mentioned that, yes.

709
00:30:10.090 --> 00:30:12.450
Interview, yes, but no pictures.

710
00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:13.283
I\'m not involved anymore,

711
00:30:13.283 --> 00:30:14.560
but I\'m with the Barbie thing.

712
00:30:14.560 --> 00:30:16.740
That\'s, we\'ve had enough of that.

713
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.150
I\'m so sorry.

714
00:30:18.150 --> 00:30:18.983
Yeah, but you haven\'t.

715
00:30:18.983 --> 00:30:20.145
You haven\'t been questioned on it.

716
00:30:20.145 --> 00:30:22.515
No, but NBC have been.

717
00:30:22.515 --> 00:30:23.348
NBC people are doing--

718
00:30:23.348 --> 00:30:24.310
But you\'re the one,

719
00:30:24.310 --> 00:30:26.540
you\'re the one who was in charge of getting him

720
00:30:26.540 --> 00:30:27.373
down the ratline.

721
00:30:27.373 --> 00:30:28.380
You were not in charge.

722
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:31.470
They blow, they blew too much, this (mumbles) stuff, so.

723
00:30:31.470 --> 00:30:33.653
My wife is absolutely against it, and I don\'t feel

724
00:30:33.653 --> 00:30:35.680
like I wanna doit, either.
Back there.

725
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.680
My conclusion was that the CIA was not directly involved.

726
00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:43.010
Now, what does that mean?

727
00:30:43.010 --> 00:30:45.310
It means that one particular part of our bureaucracy

728
00:30:45.310 --> 00:30:47.200
was not involved, and another was.

729
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.107
I met at least three

730
00:30:50.107 --> 00:30:53.086
different American intelligence services.

731
00:30:53.086 --> 00:30:57.669
(children singing in foreign language)

732
00:31:39.112 --> 00:31:42.612
(lilting pan flute music)

733
00:32:02.041 --> 00:32:05.291
(rapid Bolivian music)

734
00:32:43.486 --> 00:32:46.736
(quick Bolivian music)

735
00:34:00.870 --> 00:34:02.310
The previous governments really

736
00:34:02.310 --> 00:34:03.947 line:15%
didn\'t want to arrest him.

737
00:36:32.342 --> 00:36:34.170
This is the photo of Alvaro De Castro

738
00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:35.490
with Barbie in the streets.

739
00:36:35.490 --> 00:36:38.730
Whenever you saw Barbie in the street, Alvado was with him.

740
00:36:38.730 --> 00:36:41.960
Alvado De Castro fronted for many of Barbie\'s activities.

741
00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:43.780
He isn\'t too happy now, then, I guess.

742
00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:45.640
No, because he was arrested a few months ago,

743
00:36:45.640 --> 00:36:47.757
was held for several weeks, and interrogated,

744
00:36:47.757 --> 00:36:49.640
and his pictures flashed all over the world

745
00:36:49.640 --> 00:36:52.950
as a paramilitary neo-Nazi and Barbie\'s friend.

746
00:36:52.950 --> 00:36:55.370
So he\'s very, very upset about the government.

747
00:36:55.370 --> 00:36:57.530
Does he give interviews?

748
00:36:57.530 --> 00:37:00.110
Yeah, for a fee.

749
00:37:00.110 --> 00:37:01.340
A lot of \'em?

750
00:37:01.340 --> 00:37:04.773
He\'s, I think he\'s made some good money off Barbie.

751
00:37:13.910 --> 00:37:15.340
In his possession, they found a whole bunch

752
00:37:15.340 --> 00:37:18.370
of photographs, Nazi paraphernalia, literature,

753
00:37:18.370 --> 00:37:20.680
Mussolini posters, Hitler posters, and so on.

754
00:37:20.680 --> 00:37:21.513
In one of the photos--
You\'re sure

755
00:37:21.513 --> 00:37:22.960
that the Nazi paraphernalia

756
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.390
wasn\'t planted by the current government

757
00:37:25.390 --> 00:37:26.223
or the current police?

758
00:37:26.223 --> 00:37:27.750
No, because there were photos in there,

759
00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:31.570
in the paraphernalia, of Alvado De Castro doing Heil Hitler,

760
00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:33.160
okay, and that wasn\'t planted.

761
00:37:33.160 --> 00:37:34.580
I think it\'d be interesting to ask him

762
00:37:34.580 --> 00:37:37.900
about the arms dealing.

763
00:37:37.900 --> 00:37:40.960
I am certain that Alvado De Castro was the representative

764
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:42.560
for this Austrian company.

765
00:37:42.560 --> 00:37:44.230
And there are also reports of people

766
00:37:44.230 --> 00:37:47.130
seeing Alvado De Castro during torture sessions

767
00:37:47.130 --> 00:37:47.963 line:15%
here in La Paz.

768
00:37:55.881 --> 00:37:59.010
His Austrian firm was dealing with a drug king,

769
00:37:59.010 --> 00:37:59.843
what\'s his name?

770
00:37:59.843 --> 00:38:01.340
Don--
Roberto Suarez.

771
00:38:01.340 --> 00:38:02.173
Right.

772
00:38:02.173 --> 00:38:04.520
He was Bolivia\'s cocaine kingpin.

773
00:38:04.520 --> 00:38:05.499
Where is he now?

774
00:38:05.499 --> 00:38:06.332
Santa Cruz?
He\'s in the Beni.

775
00:38:06.332 --> 00:38:08.010
No, in the Beni, hiding somewhere in the Beni.

776
00:38:08.010 --> 00:38:08.843
Oh, he is hiding?

777
00:38:08.843 --> 00:38:11.503
Oh yes, because you know, the law is after him.

778
00:38:12.600 --> 00:38:17.123 line:15%
And you know, he uses Steyr-Daimler weapons.

779
00:38:25.925 --> 00:38:28.820
De Castro must be getting impatient in there.

780
00:38:28.820 --> 00:38:30.300
Right.

781
00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:32.020
When you meet him, he\'s very charming.

782
00:38:32.020 --> 00:38:33.240
He looks like a gentleman.

783
00:38:33.240 --> 00:38:35.980
He\'s really not gonna reveal anything that is sensational,

784
00:38:35.980 --> 00:38:38.843
or anything that\'s critical of Barbie or of himself.

785
00:38:44.578 --> 00:38:47.440 line:15%
Mr. De Castro, my name is Marcel Ophuls.

786
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:48.420
You know Peter already, don\'t you?

787
00:38:48.420 --> 00:38:49.341
Yeah, yeah.

788
00:38:49.341 --> 00:38:51.917
(speaking in foreign language)

789
00:38:51.917 --> 00:38:52.930
Please sit down.

790
00:38:52.930 --> 00:38:54.210
Please sit down.

791
00:38:54.210 --> 00:38:55.043
Thank you.

792
00:38:55.043 --> 00:38:56.820
I\'m sorry I\'m late.

793
00:38:56.820 --> 00:38:58.916
And I\'m sorry I\'m this way.

794
00:38:58.916 --> 00:39:01.240
I\'m having the altitude sickness,

795
00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:03.091
so I\'m taking afternoon naps.

796
00:39:03.091 --> 00:39:04.203
(speaking in foreign language)

797
00:39:04.203 --> 00:39:05.393
Do you understand what I\'m saying?

798
00:39:05.393 --> 00:39:06.226
Yes.

799
00:39:06.226 --> 00:39:09.430
Senor De Castro, have you had any communication

800
00:39:09.430 --> 00:39:12.410
with your friend, Klaus Barbie,

801
00:39:12.410 --> 00:39:14.430 line:15%
since he\'s been jailed in Lyon?

802
00:39:23.410 --> 00:39:25.210 line:15%
You get letters from him?

803
00:39:37.324 --> 00:39:38.420 line:15%
He doesn\'t like to be in jail.

804
00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:42.800
Someone tells me that Don Roberto Suarez,

805
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:44.990
the drug king in Bolivia,

806
00:39:44.990 --> 00:39:49.833
receives arms from a Austrian firm.

807
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:53.320
And you are the representative, in Bolivia,

808
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:54.600
of that Austrian firm.

809
00:39:54.600 --> 00:39:57.050 line:15%
Could you tell me if that information is correct?

810
00:40:23.828 --> 00:40:26.030 line:15%
I will tell you the following.

811
00:40:26.030 --> 00:40:27.933 line:15%
Yes, but please answer my question.

812
00:40:42.430 --> 00:40:43.940 line:15%
Yes, all right, that\'s what I wanna know.

813
00:40:43.940 --> 00:40:44.773 line:15%
All right.

814
00:40:57.620 --> 00:40:58.453 line:15%
Is that so?

815
00:40:58.453 --> 00:41:00.760
And I think they were also involved in doing,

816
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:03.890
providing information, intelligence information,

817
00:41:03.890 --> 00:41:04.870
to the U.S. government.

818
00:41:04.870 --> 00:41:05.703
Okay.

819
00:41:05.703 --> 00:41:09.040 line:15%
Did you ever go to the American embassy with information?

820
00:41:09.040 --> 00:41:10.290 line:15%
You never did?

821
00:41:12.442 --> 00:41:13.275 line:15%
Think it over.

822
00:41:13.275 --> 00:41:14.108 line:15%
Think it over, because I\'m going to go

823
00:41:14.108 --> 00:41:16.363 line:15%
to the American Embassy and ask them.

824
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:02.064 line:15%
The fact that Barbie viewed him as a liar

825
00:42:02.064 --> 00:42:02.997 line:15%
doesn\'t mean they\'re gonna be hugging each other.

826
00:42:02.997 --> 00:42:05.100
And this is a group of paramilitary.

827
00:42:05.100 --> 00:42:06.660
These are the fiances of death?

828
00:42:06.660 --> 00:42:07.830
Yes, the fiances of death

829
00:42:07.830 --> 00:42:09.680
This is Joachim Fiebelkorn.

830
00:42:09.680 --> 00:42:10.513
Yeah.

831
00:42:10.513 --> 00:42:14.010
This is a ex-Nazi who was involved in arms dealing.

832
00:42:14.010 --> 00:42:16.040
And this is Adolfo Ustares.

833
00:42:16.040 --> 00:42:17.230
The lawyer?

834
00:42:17.230 --> 00:42:18.967
And this is a photo of Adolfo Ustares,

835
00:42:18.967 --> 00:42:21.490
the same person who is in this photo with Klaus Barbie.

836
00:42:21.490 --> 00:42:23.490 line:15%
Who are the fiances of death?

837
00:43:36.133 --> 00:43:39.383 line:15%
(military march music)

838
00:44:32.536 --> 00:44:36.575 line:15%
Did you ever meet Fiebelkorn?

839
00:44:36.575 --> 00:44:37.630
Did you have drinks with him?

840
00:44:37.630 --> 00:44:40.523 line:15%
Did you go out at night with him in Santa Cruz?

841
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.750
All these former Nazis were very closely tied together.

842
00:45:18.750 --> 00:45:21.354
Alvado De Castro should comment on that himself--

843
00:45:21.354 --> 00:45:22.187
Yes.
The fact that

844
00:45:22.187 --> 00:45:23.110
they were tied.

845
00:45:23.110 --> 00:45:25.510
And there was a network of ex-Nazis

846
00:45:25.510 --> 00:45:28.983 line:15%
in South America that was, in my opinion, very, very active.

847
00:45:49.137 --> 00:45:52.887 line:15%
Came to his attention, heard.

848
00:46:20.909 --> 00:46:22.157 line:15%
About the search for Mengele.

849
00:46:58.170 --> 00:46:59.167 line:15%
Let me interrupt.

850
00:46:59.167 --> 00:47:03.170
If they exaggerated Mengele\'s role and Barbie\'s role,

851
00:47:03.170 --> 00:47:06.600
presumably, we\'ve also exaggerated Eichmann\'s role.

852
00:47:06.600 --> 00:47:09.133 line:15%
So whose role did we not exaggerate?

853
00:47:23.695 --> 00:47:24.528
Excuse me.

854
00:47:24.528 --> 00:47:25.361 line:15%
Do you know I\'m Jewish?

855
00:47:25.361 --> 00:47:28.290 line:15%
(Peter speaks in foreign language)

856
00:47:28.290 --> 00:47:29.123
(repeats in foreign language).

857
00:47:29.123 --> 00:47:32.040 line:15%
Do you know how to recognize a Jew?

858
00:47:50.764 --> 00:47:52.326 line:15%
He said Barbie commented to him,

859
00:47:52.326 --> 00:47:53.743 line:15%
within the Jews--

860
00:47:57.661 --> 00:48:02.250 line:15%
There are people who are not angry.

861
00:48:02.250 --> 00:48:03.506
People who are not angry?

862
00:48:03.506 --> 00:48:04.450
Who are not vindictive

863
00:48:04.450 --> 00:48:05.320
or not full of anger.

864
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:06.805
The Jews are not full of anger?

865
00:48:06.805 --> 00:48:07.974
(Peter speaks in foreign language)

866
00:48:07.974 --> 00:48:09.630 line:15%
This is what Barbie thought?

867
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.313 line:15%
That\'s what he told me.

868
00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:40.960 line:15%
They insult me.

869
00:49:44.556 --> 00:49:45.389 line:15%
I cannot enter a store to buy a sweater.

870
00:50:01.514 --> 00:50:02.347
Doesn\'t he know that he

871
00:50:02.347 --> 00:50:04.143 line:15%
is known as Barbie\'s best friend?

872
00:50:06.345 --> 00:50:08.270 line:15%
They do that, know that, and because of that,

873
00:50:08.270 --> 00:50:09.120 line:15%
they bother him.

874
00:50:09.120 --> 00:50:09.953 line:15%
Yes.

875
00:50:13.908 --> 00:50:17.420 line:15%
(regal instrumental music)

876
00:50:17.420 --> 00:50:20.980
In South America, having, especially Lima, and Chile,

877
00:50:20.980 --> 00:50:24.940
and Ecuador, and Argentina, having been the recipients,

878
00:50:24.940 --> 00:50:28.853
you know, of the, how would you say it?

879
00:50:30.198 --> 00:50:31.680
The (speaks in foreign language),

880
00:50:31.680 --> 00:50:34.052
I mean, all kind of, as I call them,

881
00:50:34.052 --> 00:50:35.170
(speaks in foreign language) of the war,

882
00:50:35.170 --> 00:50:36.513
you know, this uh,

883
00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:39.480
in German, it\'s a very nice word to say, you know?

884
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:40.313
It\'s like something left over.

885
00:50:40.313 --> 00:50:41.150
Yes, it\'s what\'s left

886
00:50:41.150 --> 00:50:42.080
on the beach, on high beach.

887
00:50:42.080 --> 00:50:43.470
Yeah, left on the beach after.

888
00:50:43.470 --> 00:50:45.480
The vanquished ones.
The vanquished, you know?

889
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:49.548
So then, of course, in these circuits, a lot of resentment

890
00:50:49.548 --> 00:50:52.620
was there, and a lot of understanding.

891
00:50:52.620 --> 00:50:54.500
And the people--

892
00:50:54.500 --> 00:50:56.780
Resentment toward the--

893
00:50:56.780 --> 00:50:58.000
Having lost.

894
00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:59.300
Toward having lost, yes.

895
00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:00.242
Definitely, having lost.

896
00:51:00.242 --> 00:51:02.000
And therefore, they sat around and drank.

897
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:06.340
Drank their beer, you know, and sang their old songs.

898
00:51:06.340 --> 00:51:07.450
And how about Barbie?

899
00:51:07.450 --> 00:51:08.420
Did he boast to people a lot?

900
00:51:08.420 --> 00:51:09.635
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

901
00:51:09.635 --> 00:51:14.240
No, no, Barbie said nothing about what he did in the war.

902
00:51:14.240 --> 00:51:16.900
I met him at the house of Frillie Schwend.

903
00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:18.750
in Santa Clara, near Lima.

904
00:51:18.750 --> 00:51:22.150
I think this was in the beginning

905
00:51:22.150 --> 00:51:27.150
of \'69 or \'70.

906
00:51:27.500 --> 00:51:29.307
Can\'t recall that very well.

907
00:51:29.307 --> 00:51:32.353 line:15%
But at that time, he was not permanently in Lima, yet.

908
00:51:44.370 --> 00:51:48.363
Okay, he thinks he was an Army man.

909
00:51:50.290 --> 00:51:54.993
And also, he thinks of Army man as noblemen.

910
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:57.810
As noblemen?
As noblemen.

911
00:51:57.810 --> 00:51:58.643
That\'s right.

912
00:51:58.643 --> 00:52:02.510
One day, there was a guest from Bolivia, a merchant,

913
00:52:02.510 --> 00:52:04.120
Klaus Altmann-Hansen.

914
00:52:04.120 --> 00:52:07.240
He was presented to me, and his wife, Regina.

915
00:52:07.240 --> 00:52:10.270
They called her Gin, Gin Altmann.

916
00:52:10.270 --> 00:52:11.730
That\'s how I met him.

917
00:52:11.730 --> 00:52:15.340
He was director of TransMaritima Boliviana,

918
00:52:15.340 --> 00:52:17.933
which is privately-owned,

919
00:52:19.060 --> 00:52:22.680
and with state participation, shipping company of Bolivia.

920
00:52:22.680 --> 00:52:25.290
Later, he bought a house next to my place

921
00:52:25.290 --> 00:52:27.250
an old house in Calle Fonia, which is

922
00:52:27.250 --> 00:52:30.593
about a further 20 kilometers up the Carretera Central,

923
00:52:30.593 --> 00:52:33.070
in the direction of the Andes.

924
00:52:33.070 --> 00:52:35.590
As I lived 35 kilometers outside,

925
00:52:35.590 --> 00:52:37.020
I will not go home for siestas.

926
00:52:37.020 --> 00:52:40.690
So I normally finished work at the Chamber of Commerce

927
00:52:40.690 --> 00:52:42.490
at about seven o\'clock or 7:30.

928
00:52:42.490 --> 00:52:45.120
And on the way home, I dropped in for a glass of wine.

929
00:52:45.120 --> 00:52:47.690
And as I found them quite interesting,

930
00:52:47.690 --> 00:52:48.670
you know, and there were always

931
00:52:48.670 --> 00:52:50.640
something interesting to talk about.

932
00:52:50.640 --> 00:52:51.880
What fascinated you?

933
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:53.060
What was...

934
00:52:53.060 --> 00:52:53.893
Well.

935
00:52:57.537 --> 00:52:59.451
About Schwend, you know, and--

936
00:52:59.451 --> 00:53:00.284
No, about Barbie.

937
00:53:00.284 --> 00:53:01.117
About Barbie?
What fascinated

938
00:53:01.117 --> 00:53:02.289
(mumbles) about Barbie?

939
00:53:02.289 --> 00:53:06.900
Well, Barbie, I must say, Barbie, in this case,

940
00:53:06.900 --> 00:53:08.900
I would not say that Barbie was the reason why I dropped

941
00:53:08.900 --> 00:53:09.850
in all the time, you know?

942
00:53:09.850 --> 00:53:11.220
I didn\'t found, I didn\'t found him

943
00:53:11.220 --> 00:53:12.570
that interesting, you know?

944
00:53:13.642 --> 00:53:16.680
He talked about his exploits in the war.

945
00:53:16.680 --> 00:53:19.956
He even, one time, he showed me his medals.

946
00:53:19.956 --> 00:53:24.956
And he had us believe he had got the Iron Cross

947
00:53:25.130 --> 00:53:26.710
First Class and Second Class

948
00:53:26.710 --> 00:53:30.250
And he got, I think he didn\'t get higher.

949
00:53:30.250 --> 00:53:32.490
But he had about, he had a small ribbon, you know?

950
00:53:32.490 --> 00:53:34.030
And he was very proud, and of course,

951
00:53:34.030 --> 00:53:35.190
a swastika was still in it.

952
00:53:35.190 --> 00:53:36.240
You know, I mean nowadays,

953
00:53:36.240 --> 00:53:39.080
you can wear the old medals, again.

954
00:53:39.080 --> 00:53:40.000
Without it.
Without it,

955
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:41.410
but he, of course, never would wear them

956
00:53:41.410 --> 00:53:42.740
without the swastika.

957
00:53:42.740 --> 00:53:44.640 line:15%
That is, of course, against his honor.

958
00:54:13.120 --> 00:54:14.530
You spoke German or Spanish?

959
00:54:14.530 --> 00:54:15.600
No, German, of course

960
00:54:15.600 --> 00:54:16.433
Always German.

961
00:54:16.433 --> 00:54:18.440
Course.
(both chuckling)

962
00:54:18.440 --> 00:54:23.264
Though, I mean, I wouldn\'t (mumbles), why should we?

963
00:54:23.264 --> 00:54:24.664 line:15%
I mean, we were all Germans.

964
00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:32.028
He\'s a gringo, Senor Schneider?

965
00:54:32.028 --> 00:54:33.257
He\'s a German.

966
00:54:33.257 --> 00:54:35.340 line:15%
German, right.

967
00:54:38.340 --> 00:54:39.730
He\'s not here in Peru.

968
00:54:39.730 --> 00:54:41.080
He comes and goes

969
00:54:41.080 --> 00:54:42.500
This was Fritz, and this was Klaus,

970
00:54:42.500 --> 00:54:43.810
and I was (speaks in foreign language).

971
00:54:43.810 --> 00:54:47.060
So I got into currency dealings with these people

972
00:54:47.060 --> 00:54:48.480
and they really cheated me.

973
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:52.503
I mean, after this apparent friendship--

974
00:54:52.503 --> 00:54:53.336
Swindle.

975
00:54:53.336 --> 00:54:55.356
I mean, past it, it was not a friendship at all, you know.

976
00:54:55.356 --> 00:54:56.400
It was--
It became a swindle.

977
00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:57.370
It became, absolutely,

978
00:54:57.370 --> 00:55:01.050
I was just conned, you know, in a very, very violent way,

979
00:55:01.050 --> 00:55:02.840
by these two buggers.

980
00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:05.290
Barbie\'s a crook, among other things.

981
00:55:05.290 --> 00:55:06.633
Oh, definitely.

982
00:55:06.633 --> 00:55:07.750
He\'s not only crooked in mind.

983
00:55:07.750 --> 00:55:08.593
He is a crook.

984
00:55:09.580 --> 00:55:10.910
I would definitely say so.

985
00:55:10.910 --> 00:55:15.296
The criminal energy required, in my opinion,

986
00:55:15.296 --> 00:55:17.820
to torture another human being,

987
00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:21.460
I mean, that is, probably, someone who\'s capable of this,

988
00:55:21.460 --> 00:55:22.960
he\'s capable of doing anything else

989
00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:25.520
and still having a clean conscience.

990
00:55:25.520 --> 00:55:28.210
The only scruple Barbie\'s had were probably

991
00:55:28.210 --> 00:55:32.620
that he had to somehow bring together, for example,

992
00:55:32.620 --> 00:55:36.070
his evode national socialistic ideology,

993
00:55:36.070 --> 00:55:38.130
which of course, required a lot of idealism.

994
00:55:38.130 --> 00:55:40.003
If you really read, I mean nationalist--

995
00:55:40.003 --> 00:55:40.859
Idealism?

996
00:55:40.859 --> 00:55:42.370
Yeah, of course, a lot of idealism,

997
00:55:42.370 --> 00:55:44.320
of giving up the personal freedom,

998
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:48.270
you know, for a big idea of a Fuhrer state,

999
00:55:48.270 --> 00:55:49.103
or whatever, you know?

1000
00:55:49.103 --> 00:55:50.860
And he had to bring that together,

1001
00:55:50.860 --> 00:55:51.693
you said, with what?
Yeah, he had

1002
00:55:51.693 --> 00:55:54.160
to bring that together.
With what?

1003
00:55:54.160 --> 00:55:55.060
Yeah, with his--
He had to bring together

1004
00:55:55.060 --> 00:55:56.880
the Nazi ideology with what?

1005
00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:58.680 line:15%
With his--
With his own dealings.

1006
00:56:23.850 --> 00:56:25.670
They stole this considerable sum of money.

1007
00:56:25.670 --> 00:56:28.110
I mean, after all, 500,000 Deutsche Marks in cash,

1008
00:56:28.110 --> 00:56:30.660
you know, was, in 1971, quite a lot of money.

1009
00:56:30.660 --> 00:56:32.716
That\'s what they stole from you, 500,000?

1010
00:56:32.716 --> 00:56:33.549
(mumbles)
Yes.

1011
00:56:33.549 --> 00:56:34.382
Yes, 500,000.

1012
00:56:34.382 --> 00:56:37.910
They really stole it from me, because, I mean,

1013
00:56:37.910 --> 00:56:39.780
they didn\'t have to go into my house.

1014
00:56:39.780 --> 00:56:41.042
I gave it to them. (chuckling)

1015
00:56:41.042 --> 00:56:42.226
Yes, yes.
They didn\'t--

1016
00:56:42.226 --> 00:56:43.180
To, to, to carry--

1017
00:56:43.180 --> 00:56:44.503
To deposit it in Bolivia.

1018
00:56:44.503 --> 00:56:49.503 line:15%
To deposit it in Bolivia.

1019
00:57:07.220 --> 00:57:09.610
I was a victim of a, of a--

1020
00:57:09.610 --> 00:57:10.880
But you were also involved?

1021
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:12.140
You were--
Definitely.

1022
00:57:12.140 --> 00:57:15.352
I was also involved in, it was not--

1023
00:57:15.352 --> 00:57:16.185
Currency.

1024
00:57:16.185 --> 00:57:18.893 line:15%
In currency dealings, you know?

1025
00:57:22.204 --> 00:57:25.700 line:15%
Okay, Mr. Altmann was a nice person.

1026
00:57:25.700 --> 00:57:27.350
He liked him a lot.

1027
00:57:27.350 --> 00:57:28.440
He liked him.
(speaks in foreign language)

1028
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:29.680
And how did he feel

1029
00:57:29.680 --> 00:57:31.820
about South American Indians?

1030
00:57:31.820 --> 00:57:33.250
You talked to him for two years.

1031
00:57:33.250 --> 00:57:34.592
You must have talked a lot about that.

1032
00:57:34.592 --> 00:57:38.753
(romantic orchestral waltz music)

1033
00:57:38.753 --> 00:57:40.253
It\'s a little bit difficult.

1034
00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:46.353
There was this very jolly admiral.

1035
00:57:46.353 --> 00:57:48.557
I really do not recall his name.

1036
00:57:48.557 --> 00:57:50.210
Doesn\'t matter
But he was a typical cholo,

1037
00:57:50.210 --> 00:57:51.957
a typical highland (speaks in foreign language).

1038
00:57:52.870 --> 00:57:55.020
Muscled like this, strong, you know,

1039
00:57:55.020 --> 00:57:56.300
short, cropped black hair,

1040
00:57:56.300 --> 00:57:58.820
but really looking like an Indian.

1041
00:57:58.820 --> 00:58:01.640
And we went to the harbor because he wanted

1042
00:58:01.640 --> 00:58:03.517
to buy a secondhand ship in the,

1043
00:58:03.517 --> 00:58:06.060
and I saw that he was treating this admiral

1044
00:58:06.060 --> 00:58:08.460
like a subordinate.

1045
00:58:08.460 --> 00:58:09.340
So?
You know, like,

1046
00:58:09.340 --> 00:58:10.520
yes, carry my bag?

1047
00:58:10.520 --> 00:58:12.770
Mr. Altmann praised his work

1048
00:58:12.770 --> 00:58:16.537
when he was doing his gardening.

1049
00:58:20.865 --> 00:58:22.400 line:15%
He thinks so.
He had an interior feeling

1050
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:23.390 line:15%
of superiority.

1051
00:58:23.390 --> 00:58:25.379 line:15%
And he was absolutely sure of himself.

1052
00:58:25.379 --> 00:58:26.240 line:15%
Ubermensch.

1053
00:58:26.240 --> 00:58:27.090 line:15%
Oh, definitely.

1054
00:58:49.600 --> 00:58:52.430
They used, of course, this TransMaritima for all kinds

1055
00:58:52.430 --> 00:58:53.380 line:15%
of deals, you know?

1056
00:59:29.144 --> 00:59:34.144 line:15%
And how much money did he lose?

1057
00:59:35.403 --> 00:59:36.930
What did Barbie\'s boat,

1058
00:59:36.930 --> 00:59:40.140
what did they do with that boat, the TransMaritima?

1059
00:59:41.050 --> 00:59:42.460
Arms smuggling?

1060
00:59:42.460 --> 00:59:43.547
Oh, yes, yes, yes.

1061
00:59:43.547 --> 00:59:45.443 line:15%
That is, uh, yes, definitely.

1062
01:00:00.930 --> 01:00:03.290
After I found out that these people were crooks,

1063
01:00:03.290 --> 01:00:07.010
you know, I just sat in a hotel room in Bogota and said,

1064
01:00:07.010 --> 01:00:08.460
now, what can I do?

1065
01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:09.450
I mean, what can I do?

1066
01:00:09.450 --> 01:00:10.770
What do I have in hand?

1067
01:00:10.770 --> 01:00:12.520
Having known these people for three years,

1068
01:00:12.520 --> 01:00:15.360
and having met a lot of their acquaintances,

1069
01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:17.150
I was, of course, very well aware

1070
01:00:17.150 --> 01:00:19.640
in what a very feeble and very delicate

1071
01:00:19.640 --> 01:00:20.687
situation I encountered myself.

1072
01:00:20.687 --> 01:00:22.190
And how powerful they could be?

1073
01:00:22.190 --> 01:00:23.870
How powerful, and how dangerous.

1074
01:00:23.870 --> 01:00:25.610
they could be if they found someone

1075
01:00:25.610 --> 01:00:27.483 line:15%
not to their liking any longer.

1076
01:00:34.102 --> 01:00:36.760
A very, a frequent visitor was Colonel Velasco Alvarado.

1077
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:40.120
He was the brother of the military dictator of Bolivia,

1078
01:00:40.120 --> 01:00:42.030
of Peru at that time.

1079
01:00:42.030 --> 01:00:43.620
So you were in that hotel room

1080
01:00:43.620 --> 01:00:44.453
in Bolivia in a tight squeeze.

1081
01:00:44.453 --> 01:00:45.286
Yeah, so I said, now, what can I do?

1082
01:00:45.286 --> 01:00:47.003
What can I do against them?

1083
01:00:47.940 --> 01:00:50.650
That I had handed over a suitcase,

1084
01:00:50.650 --> 01:00:53.640
with almost 500,000 Deutsche Mark,

1085
01:00:53.640 --> 01:00:55.280
wasn\'t Deutsche Mark, it was local currency,

1086
01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:59.180
but the equivalent, and a kilo of gold, and some documents.

1087
01:00:59.180 --> 01:01:00.930
How could I ever fundament it?

1088
01:01:00.930 --> 01:01:03.050
There was nothing, had no receipt, nothing.

1089
01:01:03.050 --> 01:01:05.260
So I started to write down everything

1090
01:01:05.260 --> 01:01:06.720
I knew about Altmann.

1091
01:01:06.720 --> 01:01:09.030
I knew that he spoke perfectly French,

1092
01:01:09.030 --> 01:01:11.480
and he even said that he was stationed in France.

1093
01:01:13.080 --> 01:01:17.180
He also sometimes said that he was, for a very short time,

1094
01:01:17.180 --> 01:01:19.033
stationed in Yugoslavia,

1095
01:01:20.340 --> 01:01:23.590
but he never really said to which battalion,

1096
01:01:23.590 --> 01:01:26.440
which infantry division, to which he belonged.

1097
01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:29.830
I said, perhaps there is some other angle to it.

1098
01:01:29.830 --> 01:01:32.370
Perhaps there is something, for example, Altmann is hiding.

1099
01:01:32.370 --> 01:01:36.200
And I made a very solemn memorandum,

1100
01:01:36.200 --> 01:01:39.230
and I sent this via a friend in Switzerland,

1101
01:01:39.230 --> 01:01:43.053
Dr. Alfred Yanni, he works with the Sandoz Corporation.

1102
01:01:43.890 --> 01:01:46.260 line:15%
I sent it to Simon Wiesenthal.

1103
01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:56.700
And then the answer came back

1104
01:01:56.700 --> 01:01:57.733
that Simon Wiesenthal declared

1105
01:01:57.733 --> 01:02:01.510
that he has got the whole archives, and files,

1106
01:02:01.510 --> 01:02:03.540
or access to them, at least,

1107
01:02:03.540 --> 01:02:04.460
of all members of Gestapo, SS, SD,

1108
01:02:04.460 --> 01:02:08.933
and there is no Klaus Altmann-Hansen.

1109
01:02:16.460 --> 01:02:18.480
So I said, bingo, now, this is really something.

1110
01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:20.880
I said, Jesus, now I\'ve found you, you bastard,

1111
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:22.630
because if you are not there,

1112
01:02:22.630 --> 01:02:25.160
then you are under another name.

1113
01:03:27.140 --> 01:03:31.094
The last time I ever saw, um, Altmann--

1114
01:03:31.094 --> 01:03:32.113
Barbie.

1115
01:03:32.113 --> 01:03:34.150
Barbie, he stopped me on the road.

1116
01:03:34.150 --> 01:03:37.110
And very furiously, he had a newspaper,

1117
01:03:37.110 --> 01:03:38.427
Peruvian newspaper, and he said,

1118
01:03:38.427 --> 01:03:41.927
\"Now, we had some commercial difficulties,

1119
01:03:41.927 --> 01:03:44.437
\"you know, but here, Simon Wiesenthal,

1120
01:03:44.437 --> 01:03:45.687
\"He said here that my,

1121
01:03:45.687 --> 01:03:47.767
\"one of my cover names was Martin Lauer.

1122
01:03:47.767 --> 01:03:50.362
\"How could he have ever known this?\"

1123
01:03:50.362 --> 01:03:51.357
And, \"This is, how, how?

1124
01:03:51.357 --> 01:03:52.260
\"Explain this to me.\"

1125
01:03:52.260 --> 01:03:55.640
I said, I understand that we had some commercial difficulty,

1126
01:03:55.640 --> 01:03:56.960
but this is something else, you know?

1127
01:03:56.960 --> 01:03:59.360 line:15%
Like this, for example, going over to the enemy.

1128
01:04:03.290 --> 01:04:05.010
He says that people like that

1129
01:04:05.010 --> 01:04:08.170
is not God\'s people.

1130
01:04:08.170 --> 01:04:09.185
They\'re not God\'s people.

1131
01:04:09.185 --> 01:04:11.340
They\'re not God\'s people.

1132
01:04:11.340 --> 01:04:14.230
Well, look, Mr. Altmann, or Mr. Barbie, I said,

1133
01:04:14.230 --> 01:04:16.400
if you prefer, you\'ve stolen this, you have,

1134
01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:18.430
this 500,000 have disappeared.

1135
01:04:18.430 --> 01:04:21.230
I want, just very shortly, I want one third back,

1136
01:04:21.230 --> 01:04:23.420
and I never want to see you again in my life.

1137
01:04:23.420 --> 01:04:25.427 line:15%
He says he will be judged by God.

1138
01:04:32.980 --> 01:04:34.560
His wife was sitting next to him.

1139
01:04:34.560 --> 01:04:37.600
I said, you said that we had commercial difficulties.

1140
01:04:37.600 --> 01:04:41.150
What you did with me was betrayal of a comrade,

1141
01:04:41.150 --> 01:04:44.540
and in my textbook, that is the death penalty, my friend.

1142
01:04:44.540 --> 01:04:48.530
In Deutsche, in German, it sounds much more forceful--

1143
01:04:48.530 --> 01:04:53.530 line:15%
Say it in German.
You know, because

1144
01:05:02.060 --> 01:05:03.503 line:15%
And I never saw him again.

1145
01:07:49.146 --> 01:07:52.313 line:15%
(charming fife music)

1146
01:07:57.934 --> 01:08:02.517 line:15%
(children singing in foreign language)

1147
01:08:52.896 --> 01:08:55.729
(pan flute music)

1148
01:12:45.421 --> 01:12:49.338 line:15%
(somber classical piano music)

1149
01:13:07.852 --> 01:13:10.602 line:15%
A gentleman, yes?

1150
01:13:18.946 --> 01:13:22.696 line:15%
(slow classical piano music)

1151
01:14:15.018 --> 01:14:18.768
(speaks in foreign language)

1152
01:23:30.736 --> 01:23:35.153 line:15%
(press speaking in foreign language)

1153
01:23:42.603 --> 01:23:47.186
(children singing in foreign language)

1154
01:23:55.378 --> 01:23:59.795 line:15%
(Peter speaking in foreign language)

1155
01:24:22.160 --> 01:24:23.940
He has been president of Bolivia?

1156
01:24:23.940 --> 01:24:25.747 line:15%
Yeah, yeah, but without--

1157
01:24:30.400 --> 01:24:31.233
But I don\'t want

1158
01:24:31.233 --> 01:24:32.516
to talk about military matters.

1159
01:24:32.516 --> 01:24:34.615
(speaks in foreign language)

1160
01:24:34.615 --> 01:24:36.050
He said, in general terms, he cannot speak.

1161
01:24:36.050 --> 01:24:38.300 line:15%
Does he remember about the arrest?

1162
01:25:14.909 --> 01:25:18.409 line:15%
(military marching music)

1163
01:26:29.579 --> 01:26:33.162 line:15%
He invited him to his house.

1164
01:27:34.936 --> 01:27:38.103 line:15%
(military band music)

1165
01:27:42.135 --> 01:27:46.718 line:15%
(children singing in foreign language)

1166
01:30:21.481 --> 01:30:25.231
(children yelling playfully)

1167
01:30:30.850 --> 01:30:33.030
Mr. De Castro, this is,

1168
01:30:33.030 --> 01:30:36.823 line:15%
this was Barbie\'s last home before his arrest.

1169
01:30:55.923 --> 01:30:57.032
Come on, come on, come on.

1170
01:30:57.032 --> 01:31:00.865 line:15%
(speaks in foreign language)

1171
01:31:05.210 --> 01:31:07.060
I don\'t understand Spanish,

1172
01:31:07.060 --> 01:31:08.555
but I know who lived here.

1173
01:31:08.555 --> 01:31:10.080
(assailant grunts)
It was Klaus Barbie,

1174
01:31:10.080 --> 01:31:13.290
and that\'s what you don\'t want us to film, isn\'t it?

1175
01:31:13.290 --> 01:31:15.073 line:15%
That\'s what you don\'t want us to film.

1176
01:31:26.090 --> 01:31:28.510
Mr. De Castro, what were we talking about

1177
01:31:28.510 --> 01:31:30.683
when we were so rudely interrupted?

1178
01:31:32.145 --> 01:31:33.945
I don\'t remember.

1179
01:31:33.945 --> 01:31:35.121 line:15%
I don\'t remember.

1180
01:31:35.121 --> 01:31:40.121 line:15%
You don\'t remember.

1181
01:32:32.786 --> 01:32:35.953 line:15%
(audience applauding)

1182
01:34:57.218 --> 01:35:00.385 line:15%
(cheerful fife music)

1183
01:36:35.190 --> 01:36:38.190
(metallic clanging)

1184
01:40:18.026 --> 01:40:21.353
(crowd chattering in foreign language)

1185
01:40:21.353 --> 01:40:24.936
(camera shutters clicking)

1186
01:42:43.319 --> 01:42:46.902 line:15%
(camera shutters clicking)

1187
01:45:20.420 --> 01:45:24.170
(rousing instrumental music)

1188
01:46:40.348 --> 01:46:43.515 line:15%
(cheerful fife music)