00:00:00:15    00:01:01:14    
00:01:01:15    00:01:08:11    [organ music playing]
00:01:08:12    00:01:15:01    ♪♪
00:01:15:02    00:01:16:04    
00:01:16:05    00:01:20:26    Very soon, all the data that is piling up
00:01:20:27    00:01:22:29    that points to evolution and says,
00:01:23:00    00:01:28:03    "it's a ridiculous notion, it is a bizarre fantasy tale
00:01:28:04    00:01:30:08    and it could not have happened that way."
00:01:30:09    00:01:32:29    That data, that's piling up,
00:01:33:00    00:01:35:26    is going to come to this critical mass
00:01:35:27    00:01:38:22    and eventually, mainstream science
00:01:38:23    00:01:45:27    will have to concede that..."okay, evolution...
00:01:45:28    00:01:47:20    yeah, we need to alter it a little bit."
00:01:47:21    00:01:50:07    And then, "evolution...
00:01:50:08    00:01:52:10    "boy, you know, we really missed the mark there!"
00:01:52:11    00:01:55:19    They're trying to push down the throats of Kansas children,
00:01:55:20    00:01:59:12    what they should know is wrong,
00:01:59:13    00:02:02:23    and by willful ignorance, they're suggesting,
00:02:02:24    00:02:05:19    "...we don't even know if evolution is real."
00:02:05:20    00:02:09:09    How can anybody say that in 2005?
00:02:09:10    00:02:11:25    Ever since 'Scopes' in 1925,
00:02:11:26    00:02:14:28    the evolutionists have had the microphone.
00:02:14:29    00:02:19:12    They have had unopposed access to the microphone,
00:02:19:13    00:02:23:20    if you know what I mean-- teaching, public, PBS...
00:02:23:21    00:02:28:13    The world has heard their side of the story for years
00:02:28:14    00:02:33:26    unopposed by any... reasons, intellectual criticism of it.
00:02:33:27    00:02:35:20    I genuinely believe
00:02:35:21    00:02:38:02    they're trying to exploit our educational system
00:02:38:03    00:02:40:24    for a political and a religious purpose.
00:02:40:25    00:02:43:09    And I think that needs, a bit, to be defended against.
00:02:43:10    00:02:49:08    Our biology teacher was a Christian fellow and, uh...
00:02:49:09    00:02:57:17    when we got to the part about evolution in the textbooks,
00:02:57:18    00:03:04:10    he says, "you know, this is not true" and he said,
00:03:04:11    00:03:08:22    "it's basically a theory..." and we knew that for sure.
00:03:08:23    00:03:13:17    he said, "I don't believe in it, but I have to teach it."
00:03:13:18    00:03:13:19    (Woman) Yeah.
00:03:13:20    00:03:16:03    He says, "to tell you the truth, God made the world
00:03:16:04    00:03:19:09    and that's just the way it is."
00:03:19:10    00:03:19:23    (Woman) Right.
00:03:19:24    00:03:21:01    And, you know, everybody in the class
00:03:21:02    00:03:23:07    pretty much agreed with him
00:03:23:08    00:03:25:14    and knew, well, that's the way it was.
00:03:25:15    00:03:34:15    [upbeat music playing]
00:03:59:00    00:04:01:03    ♪ background music ♪
00:04:01:04    00:04:04:20    [chick chirping]
00:04:04:21    00:04:07:22    (male voice) Not favored biochemically, they're very similar.
00:04:07:23    00:04:11:22    ♪♪
00:04:11:23    00:04:13:28    There's a lot of preconceived ideas
00:04:13:29    00:04:16:00    of Kansas and the types of people that live here.
00:04:16:01    00:04:17:25    It was trying to portray Kansans
00:04:17:26    00:04:20:18    and people in the Midwest as... you know, as 'hicks'.
00:04:20:19    00:04:22:18    In Kansas, we got a lot of wind and stuff,
00:04:22:19    00:04:23:22    but we don't have any...
00:04:23:23    00:04:25:20    we have tornados and things like that
00:04:25:21    00:04:28:01    but we don't have no hurricanes and stuff like that.
00:04:28:02    00:04:30:23    Kansas is noted for wheat, you know, corn and wheat
00:04:30:24    00:04:32:08    and things like that.
00:04:32:09    00:04:33:11    ♪ background music continues ♪
00:04:33:12    00:04:36:07    (woman) We don't have the big city concerns about high crime
00:04:36:08    00:04:40:00    and lots of traffic and it's just a nice place to live.
00:04:43:17    00:04:47:03    I would say that the reason there is a controversy here
00:04:47:04    00:04:49:14    is because we are independent thinkers.
00:04:49:15    00:04:53:04    We are not going to be told "this is a fact, believe it..."
00:04:53:05    00:04:55:11    when there's not enough evidence to back it up.
00:04:55:12    00:04:58:21    I don't believe in the literal Genesis story of creation
00:04:58:22    00:05:01:14    any more than I believe in...any culture's...
00:05:01:15    00:05:04:02    story of creation they've come up with.
00:05:04:03    00:05:05:15    I don't believe that we all evolved
00:05:05:16    00:05:07:12    from some bubbling pool of chemicals.
00:05:07:13    00:05:09:25    I do believe in Creation but there is...
00:05:09:26    00:05:12:29    well-documented and a lot of evolution within species.
00:05:13:00    00:05:14:18    Look at all the varieties of rabbits
00:05:14:19    00:05:15:28    Evolution within the species,
00:05:15:29    00:05:17:29    it's provided us with some more variety.
00:05:18:00    00:05:20:03    So, yeah, I do obviously believe in that
00:05:20:04    00:05:22:07    but no, I don't believe I'm related to monkeys.
00:05:22:08    00:05:25:04    Anyone who wants to, feel free, but I don't think I am.
00:05:25:05    00:05:26:20    
00:05:26:21    00:05:30:04    I kind of think there's a 'dual' thing there.
00:05:30:05    00:05:33:02    I think part of it's Evolution and part of it's Creation.
00:05:33:03    00:05:36:09    And I think, people were created and then through evolution,
00:05:36:10    00:05:37:27    it's gotten better and better.
00:05:37:28    00:05:39:28    Our children are confused enough
00:05:39:29    00:05:41:24    without trying to bring something else
00:05:41:25    00:05:43:01    they know is not real.
00:05:43:02    00:05:44:10    Then they trying to teach our children
00:05:44:11    00:05:46:05    that we all come from apes
00:05:46:06    00:05:47:25    and we don't look just like apes.
00:05:47:26    00:05:50:15    So I think, I think the importance of what they should teach.
00:05:50:16    00:05:54:09    Teach us the right Creation -- that God is the one who created
00:05:54:10    00:05:58:27    not apes or lots of monkeys.
00:05:58:28    00:06:02:17    I know it's been a hot topic, you know, in Kansas specifically
00:06:02:18    00:06:04:10    for the last however many years.
00:06:04:11    00:06:05:26    They've been going back and forth on it.
00:06:05:27    00:06:08:20    At this point, I put my trust in the board of education.
00:06:08:21    00:06:10:25    They're the experts and I'm trusting
00:06:10:26    00:06:12:27    that they'll make the right decision.
00:06:12:28    00:06:15:04    
00:06:15:05    00:06:18:07    ♪ background music ♪
00:06:18:08    00:06:22:25    But I certainly don't think that people became human
00:06:22:26    00:06:23:29    after, you know...
00:06:24:00    00:06:27:03    from an ape or even from a one-celled animal
00:06:27:04    00:06:29:17    I just don't think it could have ever happened.
00:06:29:18    00:06:33:06    
00:06:33:07    00:06:35:14    We've been told, "Evolution is a fact!"
00:06:35:15    00:06:37:05    "Well, it's theory but it's a fact also."
00:06:37:06    00:06:41:25    I mean, the idea that indeed there is something
00:06:41:26    00:06:46:11    so sacred in science that it can't be critically analyzed
00:06:46:12    00:06:49:05    I believe is harmful for students, of course.
00:06:49:06    00:06:52:20    
00:06:52:21    00:06:56:03    I believe that it was required of me by God
00:06:56:04    00:06:58:21    to run for the board.
00:06:58:22    00:07:02:06    
00:07:02:07    00:07:06:04    And that's not to say that I believe
00:07:06:05    00:07:08:18    it was written in the Heavens that I would win.
00:07:08:19    00:07:11:08    I learned a lot just in the running
00:07:11:09    00:07:13:03    but, we did win,
00:07:13:04    00:07:17:02    and so, I believe that God has a purpose for that.
00:07:17:03    00:07:21:05    ♪♪
00:07:21:06    00:07:24:03    In addition to our local Kansas media,
00:07:24:04    00:07:27:01    we have representatives from the Boston Globe,
00:07:27:02    00:07:29:15    the New York Times, the LA Times.
00:07:29:16    00:07:31:07    There's a French television station,
00:07:31:08    00:07:32:27    the Canadian Broadcasting Station.
00:07:32:28    00:07:34:06    CNN is here.
00:07:34:07    00:07:36:20    ABC news is here and NBC news is here,
00:07:36:21    00:07:40:01    Education Week--it's a National Publication.
00:07:42:09    00:07:44:08    (Steve Abrams) A brief history of how we arrived at these hearings
00:07:44:09    00:07:46:12    may be helpful.
00:07:46:13    00:07:48:26    In June of last year, a statewide committee
00:07:48:27    00:07:50:25    appointed by the Commissioner of Education
00:07:50:26    00:07:53:17    began the process of reviewing and revising
00:07:53:18    00:07:55:14    the State Science Standards.
00:07:55:15    00:08:01:04    ♪♪
00:08:01:05    00:08:02:27    The Writing Committee met several times
00:08:02:28    00:08:04:29    and presented a draft of the standards
00:08:05:00    00:08:08:14    to the State Board in December of 2004.
00:08:08:15    00:08:13:29    
00:08:14:00    00:08:14:00    [ Background Music ]
00:08:14:01    00:08:15:04    At the same time,
00:08:15:05    00:08:17:01    eight members of the Writing Committee
00:08:17:02    00:08:20:03    submitted what is now referred to as "the minority report,"
00:08:20:04    00:08:23:02    asking the State Board to consider some changes
00:08:23:03    00:08:23:29    to the draft.
00:08:24:00    00:08:29:27    
00:08:29:28    00:08:31:19    Through much discussion at the State Board,
00:08:31:20    00:08:33:15    a subcommittee -- three of us --
00:08:33:16    00:08:37:05    was formed to further examine the issues
00:08:37:06    00:08:38:28    contained in the minority report.
00:08:38:29    00:08:41:20    After much discussion, it was decided that the best forum
00:08:41:21    00:08:44:23    to address the issues was via hearings. such as these,
00:08:44:24    00:08:46:10    we'll have over the next several days.
00:08:46:11    00:08:48:07    I was hoping that some good, scientific evidence
00:08:48:08    00:08:50:24    would be presented and that we'd be able to hear
00:08:50:25    00:08:53:28    lots of testimony from PhD scientists
00:08:53:29    00:08:56:18    and others about the Science Standards.
00:08:56:19    00:08:58:17    I hope maybe it will clear the air once and for all
00:08:58:18    00:09:00:09    and allow an open discussion
00:09:00:10    00:09:01:22    'cause I think that's all we're asking for.
00:09:01:23    00:09:08:15    
00:09:08:16    00:09:12:08    This was a facade from the beginning!
00:09:12:09    00:09:16:17    
00:09:16:18    00:09:19:12    Its real purpose was to,
00:09:19:13    00:09:26:07    number one--give them the facade of credibility
00:09:26:08    00:09:31:05    so that when they did what we know that they are going to do,
00:09:31:06    00:09:35:26    which is change the standards to be anti-evolutionary,
00:09:35:27    00:09:37:23    they would have something to point back to...
00:09:37:24    00:09:39:20    to give it a rationale.
00:09:39:21    00:09:41:27    The board members already had the information.
00:09:41:28    00:09:44:13    That's what the Writing Committee came for.
00:09:44:14    00:09:47:11    They constituted the Writing Committee whose charge was
00:09:47:12    00:09:50:25    to review the best that science had to offer
00:09:50:26    00:09:54:15    and put it into a concise form in a set of standards.
00:09:54:16    00:09:57:29    
00:09:58:00    00:10:02:14    And indeed, science had presented its case
00:10:02:15    00:10:07:24    in the form of pages and pages of written critiques
00:10:07:25    00:10:12:07    of both draft 1 and draft 2 and minority report
00:10:12:08    00:10:14:12    and all these different versions of the science standards.
00:10:14:13    00:10:18:10    
00:10:18:11    00:10:21:07    That's what the Writing Standards Committee were,
00:10:21:08    00:10:25:14    they were experts appointed by that body.
00:10:25:15    00:10:30:01    
00:10:30:02    00:10:32:21    And what happened is, the creationists did not get
00:10:32:22    00:10:36:04    the outcomes they wanted so they changed the rules.
00:10:36:05    00:10:38:12    (Jack Krebs) The original idea was that they would have three days
00:10:38:13    00:10:40:15    to present their case and the scientists would come in
00:10:40:16    00:10:42:09    and have three days to present their case.
00:10:42:10    00:10:44:12    And this would buy in to this idea
00:10:44:13    00:10:46:12    that we've got our point of view
00:10:46:13    00:10:47:19    and they've got their point of view
00:10:47:20    00:10:49:04    and you've heard the evidence and you've heard three days
00:10:49:05    00:10:51:00    of evidence and they're, they're balanced.
00:10:51:01    00:10:53:27    From a scientific standpoint, there was no validity
00:10:53:28    00:10:55:03    to the Kansas hearings.
00:10:55:04    00:10:57:17    There is a saying, ascribed to Thomas Jefferson,
00:10:57:18    00:10:59:23    though it may be a pocketful, that,
00:10:59:24    00:11:01:08    "there's nothing so unequal
00:11:01:09    00:11:04:06    as the equal treatment of unequal things."
00:11:04:07    00:11:06:26    And their idea is to make 'unequal' things 'equal'
00:11:06:27    00:11:09:16    by setting up this deal out in public.
00:11:09:17    00:11:11:15    It's a standard creationist ploy,
00:11:11:16    00:11:14:06    they love having debates because it gives them credibility.
00:11:14:07    00:11:26:02    
00:11:26:03    00:11:29:14    The Science Writing Committee ...is rigged.
00:11:29:15    00:11:33:24    
00:11:33:25    00:11:36:24    Jack Krebs, the High School Math teacher,
00:11:36:25    00:11:40:04    is in charge of the High School Biology section.
00:11:40:05    00:11:41:06    That doesn't make any sense.
00:11:41:07    00:11:43:20    He doesn't teach Biology, he doesn't know biology.
00:11:43:21    00:11:47:12    Jack Krebs is the vice president of Kansas Citizens for Science,
00:11:47:13    00:11:52:05    an organization set up just to oppose any challenges to evolution.
00:11:52:06    00:11:56:14    Well, I think, probably I'm the  one that suggested the hearings.
00:11:56:15    00:12:01:05    
00:12:01:06    00:12:04:12    And the reason why I suggested the hearings is,
00:12:04:13    00:12:08:16    I didn't think that without hearings,
00:12:08:17    00:12:12:20    either the committee or the public
00:12:12:21    00:12:15:01    would ever understand this issue.
00:12:15:02    00:12:16:25    (Bill Harris) Creationism, literally, is...
00:12:16:26    00:12:20:18    you begin with a religious text.
00:12:20:19    00:12:21:12    That's where you start,
00:12:21:13    00:12:23:16    religious text then the Christian view, it's Genesis.
00:12:23:17    00:12:28:06    Well, Christian and Jewish, I guess, would be
00:12:28:07    00:12:30:16    the beginning -- the first nine books of the Bible.
00:12:30:17    00:12:33:08    Genesis, the creation story,
00:12:33:09    00:12:37:18    six days, young earth, 10,000-ish years old,
00:12:37:19    00:12:42:03    worldwide flood, all the animal forms
00:12:42:04    00:12:45:12    and all the life forms are a result of those processes.
00:12:45:13    00:12:48:06    Created, bang! Like that, out of nothing.
00:12:48:07    00:12:52:03    Intelligent design,  which again, we're not proposing
00:12:52:04    00:12:54:03    be formally put into the standards.
00:12:54:04    00:12:56:21    I mean, we're not asking for that.
00:12:56:22    00:13:00:20    But intelligent design is a much more minimalistic view.
00:13:00:21    00:13:05:01    It's a... "is there evidence regardless of who the...
00:13:05:02    00:13:06:25    who a designer might have been."
00:13:06:26    00:13:10:18    Is there evidence for the hand of the designer
00:13:10:19    00:13:14:16    in the world today and in biological systems?
00:13:14:17    00:13:16:17    Can you find in the same way that you would find
00:13:16:18    00:13:22:19    evidence for a purpose in a fire being set at a house
00:13:22:20    00:13:27:14    by investigation of the clues left behind by the arsonist?
00:13:27:15    00:13:30:00    The basic strategy of the other side
00:13:30:01    00:13:32:28    is to avoid the discussion of the substance
00:13:32:29    00:13:40:19    and instead, to cast dispersions on motives, or the office,
00:13:40:20    00:13:44:24    or the propriety of  somebody else--the messengers.
00:13:44:25    00:13:48:22    (Jack Krebs) The Board Subcommittee, their minds were already made up
00:13:48:23    00:13:50:13    that this was a rigged jury
00:13:50:14    00:13:52:27    and this is why we called it a Kangaroo Court.
00:13:52:28    00:13:54:28    To say that it's a foregone conclusion?
00:13:54:29    00:13:56:04    I don't believe that at all.
00:13:56:05    00:13:57:25    So, you know, my mind wasn't made up.
00:13:57:26    00:14:02:22    I was sincerely eager to see what was all the fuss about.
00:14:02:23    00:14:04:28    ♪♪
00:14:04:29    00:14:07:15    (George Griffith) Kansas Citizens for Science
00:14:07:16    00:14:12:01    had sent out letters to anybody who has accepted
00:14:12:02    00:14:15:10    or were willing to speak.
00:14:15:11    00:14:18:22    They sent out informational packets to these people
00:14:18:23    00:14:21:21    and basically requesting them not to attend.
00:14:21:22    00:14:23:20    Apparently, all of the evolutionary biologists
00:14:23:21    00:14:27:15    were gutless wonders that didn't want to come in
00:14:27:16    00:14:28:23    and present their scientific evidence
00:14:28:24    00:14:29:19    and be questioned about it.
00:14:29:20    00:14:34:03    The idea was that Calvert would represent the minority point of view
00:14:34:04    00:14:35:23    and somebody would represent the majority
00:14:35:24    00:14:38:04    and then the majority would bring in speakers.
00:14:38:05    00:14:39:28    Well, that's when Kansas Citizens for Science
00:14:39:29    00:14:43:20    called for a boycott that held worldwide.
00:14:43:21    00:14:45:23    In my view, the reason they don't want to participate
00:14:45:24    00:14:48:18    is that they don't want their theory held up
00:14:48:19    00:14:50:25    to the bright light of modern science.
00:14:50:26    00:14:53:13    If we participated and then they said,
00:14:53:14    00:14:55:27    "oh, science got their piece,
00:14:55:28    00:15:01:09    "the intelligent design got their say, and we...
00:15:01:10    00:15:04:20    you know, who have sit and weighed the testimony of both sides
00:15:04:21    00:15:05:24    find science lacking...
00:15:05:25    00:15:08:29    We weren't gonna provide that kind of political coverage.
00:15:09:00    00:15:13:18    And to not show up and not give their evidence was childish
00:15:13:19    00:15:15:14    and I'm embarrassed for them!
00:15:15:15    00:15:17:02    We said 'no'!
00:15:17:03    00:15:20:13    Science has answered these claims, these challenges.
00:15:20:14    00:15:21:29    If you want us to be a part of science,
00:15:22:00    00:15:24:13    you will meet us there.
00:15:24:14    00:15:28:15    You will publish.  You will convince us,  your peers.
00:15:28:16    00:15:30:29    Until you do that, that is not science
00:15:31:00    00:15:33:03    and that's why our boycott worked.
00:15:33:04    00:15:35:12    
00:15:35:13    00:15:39:22    I thought it was kind of cheesy that, you know,
00:15:39:23    00:15:41:26    scientists, by and large, chose not to testify
00:15:41:27    00:15:42:28    as a protest.
00:15:42:29    00:15:46:09    I thought that's sort of a hollow protest.
00:15:46:10    00:15:48:11    Well, you know, as a lawyer,
00:15:48:12    00:15:51:16    I would love to take a default judgment.
00:15:51:17    00:15:54:17    Okay? I mean, in that sense.
00:15:54:18    00:15:56:24    And if those side doesn't show up
00:15:56:25    00:16:01:11    essentially, the board is gonna be seeing only one side
00:16:01:12    00:16:07:26    but I think that it's in the best interest of the public,
00:16:07:27    00:16:09:06    and of the board,
00:16:09:07    00:16:13:03    that they hear both sides of this issue.
00:16:13:04    00:16:14:28    And so, if there is another side,
00:16:14:29    00:16:16:15    it should be presented.
00:16:16:16    00:16:17:29    
00:16:18:00    00:16:19:15    My name is pronounced
00:16:19:16    00:16:22:10    (in Spanish accent) Pedro Luis Irigonegaray.
00:16:22:11    00:16:25:09    I became involved in the hearings
00:16:25:10    00:16:27:03    as a result of a phone call
00:16:27:04    00:16:31:16    from the Kansas State Department of Education.
00:16:31:17    00:16:33:26    I was absolutely thrilled!
00:16:33:27    00:16:36:27    He knew enough  about the issue to feel
00:16:36:28    00:16:41:07    like this is a genuine threat to both education and democracy
00:16:41:08    00:16:43:12    that he wanted to take this on.
00:16:43:13    00:16:44:25    I think he's a good attorney.
00:16:44:26    00:16:46:23    I think he will take the position
00:16:46:24    00:16:49:08    that has been ascribed to him
00:16:49:09    00:16:50:26    and uh, defend it well.
00:16:50:27    00:16:52:24    I think he commits to a cause
00:16:52:25    00:16:55:04    because he truly believes in causes.
00:16:55:05    00:16:58:09    I find that very refreshing about him.
00:16:58:10    00:16:59:26    We'll see if he complies or not
00:16:59:27    00:17:02:06    and, you know, if he's willing to play the game
00:17:02:07    00:17:04:03    you know, by the rules, or if he's just gonna
00:17:04:04    00:17:05:28    play the game he wants to so,
00:17:05:29    00:17:08:16    and I know lawyers have their own strategies
00:17:08:17    00:17:10:10    and I certainly have never...
00:17:10:11    00:17:13:11    I'm not a lawyer and you know I'm not even a good debater
00:17:13:12    00:17:14:12    and I never could do that
00:17:14:13    00:17:16:01    because I never could take the side
00:17:16:02    00:17:17:25    that I didn't feel was right
00:17:17:26    00:17:18:15    [laughs].
00:17:18:16    00:17:21:10    They were paying thousands of dollars
00:17:21:11    00:17:23:07    to conduct these hearings.
00:17:23:08    00:17:25:13    Even attorney's fees were paid.
00:17:25:14    00:17:28:19    I refused to accept a penny because I thought...
00:17:28:20    00:17:32:19    A: We're stealing money from the children of the state
00:17:32:20    00:17:35:18    in order to carry out their own political agenda.
00:17:35:19    00:17:36:09    It's gonna be good.
00:17:36:10    00:17:39:27    They need to have somebody on the other side
00:17:39:28    00:17:41:27    that will certainly add some credibility
00:17:41:28    00:17:45:00    and he'll be able to expose any agendas,
00:17:45:01    00:17:49:14    hidden agendas that our side, our people might have.
00:17:49:15    00:17:58:15    ♪ guitar plays ♪
00:18:00:01    00:18:02:06    (Interviewer) Do you feel that there's scientific evidence
00:18:02:07    00:18:04:14    of other things besides evolution?
00:18:04:15    00:18:09:26    ♪ soft music plays in background ♪
00:18:09:27    00:18:10:29    My husband's the one to ask.
00:18:11:00    00:18:13:02    I've...no, I don't think... I don't think so,
00:18:13:03    00:18:15:10    but maybe there is.
00:18:15:11    00:18:16:18    There is a possibility I guess.
00:18:16:19    00:18:17:23    There could be.
00:18:17:24    00:18:19:00    (Interviewer) Do you believe in a literal
00:18:19:01    00:18:21:25    interpretation of the Bible?
00:18:21:26    00:18:24:09    Yes, for the most part.
00:18:24:10    00:18:26:18    (Interviewer) How are you on the belief
00:18:26:19    00:18:29:01    that man may have... a common ancestor?
00:18:29:02    00:18:31:04    I believe that's true.
00:18:31:05    00:18:33:22    I'm not sure how it all works.
00:18:33:23    00:18:36:15    And I'm sure that there's, I'm sure there's a description
00:18:36:16    00:18:38:08    and maybe even the Bible tells it.
00:18:38:09    00:18:41:05    I'm not gonna swear to know the Bible word for word but
00:18:41:06    00:18:43:00    I think that there's a lot in common with them.
00:18:43:01    00:18:45:25    Just from watching documentaries, et cetera,
00:18:45:26    00:18:50:14    on how a mammal and a man are so similar.
00:18:50:15    00:18:59:15    ♪♪
00:19:00:05    00:19:02:21    (John Calvert) Dr. Abrams and members of the committee,
00:19:02:22    00:19:06:26    I'd like to introduce you to Dr. Charles Thaxton.
00:19:06:27    00:19:10:02    The problem is not what they say.
00:19:10:03    00:19:12:05    The problem is what they're leaving out
00:19:12:06    00:19:15:27    and the hay they're gonna make as a result of leaving it out.
00:19:15:28    00:19:18:14    And they're specifically leaving out this reference
00:19:18:15    00:19:22:03    that science deals with only natural explanations.
00:19:22:04    00:19:24:15    And they're specifically leaving it out because then,
00:19:24:16    00:19:26:18    that opens up  the supernatural.
00:19:26:19    00:19:31:17    At the institutional level there is an entrenched bias
00:19:31:18    00:19:37:09    and the entrenched bias is, that... it's called 'naturalism'
00:19:37:10    00:19:41:25    or 'mythological naturalism' and it's the idea that
00:19:41:26    00:19:46:03    we cannot explain anything in a natural world
00:19:46:04    00:19:49:24    other than with just a purely material or physical cause.
00:19:49:25    00:19:54:23    This is a perspective that says, science proceeds
00:19:54:24    00:19:56:21    by only examining natural causes,
00:19:56:22    00:19:59:10    the natural-cause-only view.
00:19:59:11    00:20:02:18    Well, in my experience, and certainly in this case
00:20:02:19    00:20:05:08    of origin of life, as we're gonna see,
00:20:05:09    00:20:08:17    I think it's a specially applied rule or principle,
00:20:08:18    00:20:11:28    it's not really a principle, it's just adhered to
00:20:11:29    00:20:13:27    and these are our generics.
00:20:13:28    00:20:15:05    Because it's easy to demonstrate
00:20:15:06    00:20:16:23    in a general pace, that it's false.
00:20:16:24    00:20:20:24    (Connie Morris) I come out of those hearings and having heard
00:20:20:25    00:20:22:29    all of that scientific talk,
00:20:23:00    00:20:26:06    I'm not a scientist and I can hardly even repeat it
00:20:26:07    00:20:30:00    - intelligently - and so you sit there and you see it,
00:20:30:01    00:20:32:19    and you hear it, and you think, "well, that make sense."
00:20:32:20    00:20:37:08    Well, of course, evolution didn't happen.
00:20:37:09    00:20:41:15    Of course it is utterly preposterous to even think that it did
00:20:41:16    00:20:44:29    and then you come  out of there
00:20:45:00    00:20:49:11    and I find myself completely incapable
00:20:49:12    00:20:50:26    of repeating the evidence.
00:20:50:27    00:20:52:07    Hello Dr. Thaxton,
00:20:52:08    00:20:54:07    it's nice to have you here.
00:20:54:08    00:20:55:10    Welcome to Kansas!
00:20:55:11    00:20:56:19    (Dr. responds) Thank you.
00:20:56:20    00:21:00:24    I'm an elementary teacher and I am humbled
00:21:00:25    00:21:04:12    by the intelligence before me so, bear with me.
00:21:04:13    00:21:08:15    So I can go out of here and people will say to me,
00:21:08:16    00:21:11:04    "You've been saying there's evidence
00:21:11:05    00:21:15:25    "that refutes 'Darwin's Theory of evolution'."
00:21:15:26    00:21:19:25    And so, I've been hoping these hearings would help me have
00:21:19:26    00:21:23:29    some good hard evidence that I can repeat.
00:21:24:00    00:21:25:07    (Jack Krebs) Connie's got an agenda--
00:21:25:08    00:21:28:11    She's out to refute evolution, She knows it's wrong,
00:21:28:12    00:21:32:17    and she has this extremely simplistic idea
00:21:32:18    00:21:34:22    that if somebody can tell her one fact,
00:21:34:23    00:21:37:27    and just say flat out that it doesn't fit in
00:21:37:28    00:21:42:04    with evolutionary theory, then the case is closed.
00:21:42:05    00:21:44:16    So I can say with certainty,
00:21:44:17    00:21:49:28    there is no evidence of the pre-biotic soup.
00:21:49:29    00:21:55:01    In all my reading and talking with experts about it,
00:21:55:02    00:21:58:11    I've never heard anyone say they have evidence
00:21:58:12    00:21:59:16    for a pre-biotic soup.
00:21:59:17    00:21:59:28    (Connie) Hmm...
00:22:00:01    00:22:02:24    Of course, I know there are plenty of statements that show
00:22:02:25    00:22:05:22    that there's evidence that it did not exist.
00:22:05:23    00:22:09:29    Isn't that a critical problem for the theory of evolution?
00:22:10:00    00:22:13:10    Didn't we need that nutrient rich, muddy pond, to...
00:22:13:11    00:22:16:21    Well, this is precisely one of the major factors
00:22:16:22    00:22:19:12    that led some people to think life was dumped here by comets.
00:22:19:13    00:22:20:11    (Pedro Irigonegaray) What would Connie say
00:22:20:12    00:22:23:12    if we were to talk to her about String Theory?
00:22:23:13    00:22:25:23    
00:22:25:24    00:22:30:05    She'd probably think it was something to be tied in the whole Mac
00:22:30:06    00:22:37:26    and yet, these individuals were making decisions
00:22:37:27    00:22:40:29    about the future educational system of our state.
00:22:41:00    00:22:43:20    Oh, you don't have to be an expert in science
00:22:43:21    00:22:47:11    and understand every word that the testimony was
00:22:47:12    00:22:52:10    in order to be able to make a decision that, indeed,
00:22:52:11    00:22:57:12    there does seem to be some significant scientific evidence
00:22:57:13    00:23:02:19    that supports the idea that indeed there is a conflict
00:23:02:20    00:23:05:19    that we want to have the students be able to discuss
00:23:05:20    00:23:07:09    in their various curriculums.
00:23:07:10    00:23:10:29    That's absolutely illogical!
00:23:11:00    00:23:13:24    How can one understand whether or not there is
00:23:13:25    00:23:17:29    a controversy in science if one doesn't understand,
00:23:18:00    00:23:20:08    at least, what the scientific process is?
00:23:20:09    00:23:24:29    Thank you and I think part of the naturalistic view
00:23:25:00    00:23:27:21    is in the introduction under "the nature of science",
00:23:27:22    00:23:29:09    and that's where it comes out.
00:23:29:10    00:23:34:17    So almost not allowing any other view with...almost...
00:23:34:18    00:23:37:10    they are not allowing this "soup" idea because
00:23:37:11    00:23:40:03    it's not really naturalistic as far as I'm concerned.
00:23:40:04    00:23:44:03    We can't see a "soup" in nature acting now.
00:23:44:04    00:23:47:02    So, how can we allow it as a part of this theory even,
00:23:47:03    00:23:49:18    I mean, I just see a lot of complications here
00:23:49:19    00:23:51:01    if we don't allow other things besides
00:23:51:02    00:23:53:15    strictly naturalistic things.
00:23:53:16    00:23:56:20    You have to use imperialism when you deal with science
00:23:56:21    00:23:58:16    and I'm not gonna ever say that.
00:23:58:17    00:24:00:10    But I think in the historical sciences,
00:24:00:11    00:24:02:11    we have used a lot of assumptions
00:24:02:12    00:24:03:20    so that we have to be careful
00:24:03:21    00:24:09:04    if we're going to keep it all to natural explanations,
00:24:09:05    00:24:11:15    maybe we have to get rid of these assumptions that were made
00:24:11:16    00:24:13:01    in historical science.
00:24:13:02    00:24:14:15    She claims to have been a lead teacher
00:24:14:16    00:24:17:10    in the elementary school and from what I gather,
00:24:17:11    00:24:19:06    from people that I have talked to - members of the school -
00:24:19:07    00:24:20:03    that wasn't quite.
00:24:20:04    00:24:22:00    She might have been the lead kindergarten teacher.
00:24:22:01    00:24:25:07    This is fascinating again and you lost me quite a ways back
00:24:25:08    00:24:26:25    but I tried to stay with you...
00:24:26:26    00:24:28:06    Her statements pretty well...
00:24:28:07    00:24:31:24    make it clear that she doesn't really understand the issues.
00:24:31:25    00:24:34:06    (Interviewer) Proponents on the other side say that
00:24:34:07    00:24:39:20    her support will redefine science.
00:24:39:21    00:24:44:02    I'm not sure that would, you know, be accurate.
00:24:44:03    00:24:46:26    What they're trying to do is give a new definition
00:24:46:27    00:24:48:16    for what science does.
00:24:48:17    00:24:51:29    
00:24:52:00    00:24:53:02    (Bill Harris) What I thought science was,
00:24:53:03    00:24:55:21    was simply the unbridled search for the truth
00:24:55:22    00:24:59:21    using, you know, objective means but it became clear then
00:24:59:22    00:25:02:09    when it came to this area of Darwinian evolution,
00:25:02:10    00:25:04:15    that there was a tremendous lack of data
00:25:04:16    00:25:09:00    and the stories were driven by a philosophy
00:25:09:01    00:25:11:10    that said everything had to have a natural explanation.
00:25:11:11    00:25:14:09    You can't let anything non-natural get in and I said,
00:25:14:10    00:25:17:25    "Well, we don't know that. We don't know that's the truth."
00:25:17:26    00:25:20:28    That's the problem that the intelligent design witnesses have
00:25:20:29    00:25:27:16    because "intelligent design" requires a designer
00:25:27:17    00:25:33:15    and the designer certainly cannot be a human being.
00:25:33:16    00:25:38:18    That being the case, the designer must be supernatural
00:25:38:19    00:25:43:29    and what supernatural being, then created through
00:25:44:00    00:25:47:24    the intelligent design process - the environment -
00:25:47:25    00:25:52:07    and ultimately, it is God.
00:25:52:08    00:25:56:09    Most importantly,  it is their perspective of God.
00:25:56:10    00:25:58:16    (Pedro Irigonegaray) You would agree with me, would you not,
00:25:58:17    00:26:00:18    that there are thousands,
00:26:00:19    00:26:04:14    thousands of individuals who are scientists,
00:26:04:15    00:26:10:05    who are able to do their scientific research
00:26:10:06    00:26:13:24    and not have their religious views threatened?
00:26:13:25    00:26:15:04    You would agree with that, would you not?
00:26:15:05    00:26:16:11    No, I would not.
00:26:16:12    00:26:18:26    Naturalism is a religious view and people
00:26:18:27    00:26:20:27    that are basing their interpretation of science,
00:26:20:28    00:26:22:20    and they're doing of science, on it are, in fact,
00:26:22:21    00:26:25:01    practicing their religion.
00:26:25:02    00:26:27:23    Do you have any personal concerns
00:26:27:24    00:26:32:04    about introducing a religious view into science?
00:26:32:05    00:26:32:24    Absolutely!
00:26:32:25    00:26:33:27    That's why I'm here.
00:26:33:28    00:26:39:01    Is intelligent design based upon a supernatural
00:26:39:02    00:26:41:04    interpretation of observation?
00:26:41:05    00:26:42:05    No, it is not.
00:26:42:06    00:26:43:15    Who is the designer?
00:26:43:16    00:26:44:29    That hasn't been  determined yet.
00:26:45:00    00:26:48:16    Would you then believe that it is appropriate for scientists,
00:26:48:17    00:26:54:01    when they cannot find a natural answer to observations
00:26:54:02    00:26:57:20    to simply rely on the supernatural explanation
00:26:57:21    00:26:59:02    for that observation?
00:26:59:03    00:26:59:27    
00:27:00:00    00:27:03:27    They should look for the best hypothesis to fit the evidence,
00:27:03:28    00:27:06:04    which can include a supernatural explanation
00:27:06:05    00:27:08:17    when you're talking about origins and historical science.
00:27:08:18    00:27:10:16    Do you believe in intelligent design?
00:27:10:17    00:27:10:28    I do.
00:27:10:29    00:27:14:10    Do you believe intelligent design answers questions
00:27:14:11    00:27:16:07    that we yet don't know in science?
00:27:16:08    00:27:19:09    No, I believe that it's not just a matter of arguing
00:27:19:10    00:27:21:25    that we don't know enough so it must have been God.
00:27:21:26    00:27:23:06    I believe there's powerful evidence
00:27:23:07    00:27:26:24    against the primary axiom and in the absence
00:27:26:25    00:27:28:27    of adequate evolutionary explanations,
00:27:28:28    00:27:32:05    it is reasonable and rational to seek other explanations.
00:27:32:06    00:27:36:08    They're also attacking this bigger idea
00:27:36:09    00:27:41:02    that, in fact, the things that we don't know about the past
00:27:41:03    00:27:45:18    can be filled in with supernatural explanations.
00:27:45:19    00:27:48:27    God created life or God created the solar system
00:27:48:28    00:27:53:02    or God created the universe as a scientific conclusion
00:27:53:03    00:27:54:26    based on our ignorance.
00:27:54:27    00:27:58:03    And that is both...
00:27:58:04    00:28:01:03    non-science religion
00:28:01:04    00:28:03:22    and an attack on all of science.
00:28:03:23    00:28:04:19    Members of the committee,
00:28:04:20    00:28:10:18    I'd like to introduce to you, Dr. Jonathan Wells.
00:28:10:19    00:28:13:14    I have no problem believing that all of us in this room,
00:28:13:15    00:28:15:08    somewhere in the distant past,
00:28:15:09    00:28:18:05    share a common ancestor.
00:28:18:06    00:28:20:00    But, is it true at higher levels?
00:28:20:01    00:28:22:05    Are all the different types of animals related
00:28:22:06    00:28:23:26    by common ancestry, for example?
00:28:23:27    00:28:27:07    Do we share a common ancestor with a worm or a fly?
00:28:27:08    00:28:29:28    (Harry McDonald) Jonathan Wells is a 'Moony'
00:28:29:29    00:28:32:29    He was sent to theology school
00:28:33:00    00:28:35:13    by the Reverend Sun Young Moon and it was paid.
00:28:35:14    00:28:40:12    He got a PhD in theology and, you know, some discipline
00:28:40:13    00:28:41:18    associated with that.
00:28:41:19    00:28:43:22    And then, by his own admission,
00:28:43:23    00:28:48:24    and in his own writing, sometime after that,
00:28:48:25    00:28:55:00    the Reverend Sun Young Moon sent him back to get a PhD in Biology
00:28:55:01    00:28:58:00    and the purpose of getting the PhD in Biology was
00:28:58:01    00:29:02:04    to obtain the credential with which to attack evolution.
00:29:02:05    00:29:05:28    So the answer which ID attempts to provide
00:29:05:29    00:29:08:25    is a supernatural one, is it not?
00:29:08:26    00:29:12:20    I won't go there and here's why.
00:29:12:21    00:29:16:03    I've said already, I do not think science benefits
00:29:16:04    00:29:18:29    from defining ahead of time, the sorts of explanations
00:29:19:00    00:29:20:29    that it can find.
00:29:21:00    00:29:22:20    There are already scientists,
00:29:22:21    00:29:24:14    respected scientists in this country
00:29:24:15    00:29:29:11    who do experiments on things that most people consider supernatural
00:29:29:12    00:29:31:23    such as prayer.
00:29:31:24    00:29:34:09    When Newton proposed his theory of gravitation,
00:29:34:10    00:29:36:19    it was dismissed as supernaturalism
00:29:36:20    00:29:39:04    because it was action, not a distance.
00:29:39:05    00:29:42:18    What constitutes supernaturalism in today's science
00:29:42:19    00:29:45:13    may very well not be supernatural in tomorrow's science.
00:29:45:14    00:29:47:11    That's why I emphasize the process
00:29:47:12    00:29:49:19    of testing hypothesis against the evidence.
00:29:49:20    00:29:51:00    ♪ background music plays ♪
00:29:51:01    00:29:52:14    (man speaking) If there's anything science isn't,
00:29:52:15    00:29:55:14    it doesn't involve the supernatural.
00:29:55:15    00:30:01:02    ♪♪
00:30:01:03    00:30:02:24    The reason why science is successful
00:30:02:25    00:30:06:05    and has transformed our societies and our lives
00:30:06:06    00:30:08:02    and improved our health, is we insist,
00:30:08:03    00:30:10:08    as we explore the world,
00:30:10:09    00:30:14:03    that there must be a natural explanation for this.
00:30:14:04    00:30:15:27    If you want to have science in which it gives up
00:30:15:28    00:30:17:28    at various points, when the going gets hard,
00:30:17:29    00:30:21:26    and says, "well, we can insert God into this step."
00:30:21:27    00:30:25:25    Then, of course, we'll never find out the answers
00:30:25:26    00:30:28:21    because you only work hard to find an answer
00:30:28:22    00:30:31:15    when you believe there is one,
00:30:31:16    00:30:34:03    that there is a natural explanation.
00:30:34:04    00:30:37:18    Always in the past,  no matter how hard the question,
00:30:37:19    00:30:40:24    we've found natural explanations so we need to keep that...
00:30:40:25    00:30:43:14    the centerpiece of science.
00:30:43:15    00:30:48:10    ♪♪
00:30:48:11    00:30:52:04    The only way one in a position of authority...
00:30:52:05    00:30:54:19    can win...
00:30:54:20    00:30:59:11    if they don't have a possession based on real substance,
00:30:59:12    00:31:00:21    is through misinformation.
00:31:00:22    00:31:05:29    (Student) Or if intelligent design is completely based on religion,
00:31:06:00    00:31:11:03    and there is not any scientific proof for it,
00:31:11:04    00:31:14:11    How should it... or how is it gonna get into the schools
00:31:14:12    00:31:20:07    because of the whole separation of church and state,
00:31:20:08    00:31:21:21    in public schools?
00:31:21:22    00:31:24:18    Yeah, That's an absolutely marvelous question
00:31:24:19    00:31:29:11    and it's my view, that until we find the evidence for it,
00:31:29:12    00:31:32:24    until we can consider it as valid science,
00:31:32:25    00:31:36:21    it has no place in a public school classroom.
00:31:36:22    00:31:39:23    
00:31:39:24    00:31:43:07    The only way that you can properly inform students,
00:31:43:08    00:31:46:12    on a matter of controversy, is to inform them
00:31:46:13    00:31:50:07    of both sides of the controversy.
00:31:50:08    00:31:52:27    But in fact, you have a single perspective.
00:31:52:28    00:31:55:09    This would be analogous to what occurred
00:31:55:10    00:31:59:28    with some companies, like Enron, where you provide only
00:31:59:29    00:32:03:11    positive financial indicators about a company
00:32:03:12    00:32:05:06    and allow the people to conclude
00:32:05:07    00:32:07:03    that your company is, in fact, healthy.
00:32:07:04    00:32:07:11    
00:32:07:12    00:32:09:05    Me and my friends sometimes refer to this
00:32:09:06    00:32:12:06    as the international conspiracy of scientists' hypothesis
00:32:12:07    00:32:14:18    that there really is all these evidence out there
00:32:14:19    00:32:16:19    but there is some of the international conspiracy.
00:32:16:20    00:32:18:09    Maybe people with decoder rings
00:32:18:10    00:32:19:17    and like these  walkie-talkie watches
00:32:19:18    00:32:20:22    which would be really cool, so...
00:32:20:23    00:32:24:07    I would...like to join... if there is such a conspiracy.
00:32:24:08    00:32:25:26    There's a tremendous amount of data
00:32:25:27    00:32:28:06    supporting intelligent design.
00:32:28:07    00:32:30:12    Every biochemical journal you would open
00:32:30:13    00:32:33:29    would find evidence for intelligent design.
00:32:34:00    00:32:35:25    It's there on every page.
00:32:35:26    00:32:40:09    It's just that the people that write those have blinders on.
00:32:40:10    00:32:43:15    You don't promote a scientific theory
00:32:43:16    00:32:46:21    by appealing to  State Boards of Educations.
00:32:46:22    00:32:49:15    If there was any validity to intelligent design,
00:32:49:16    00:32:51:08    they would be publishing their work;
00:32:51:09    00:32:54:17    they would be convincing people just by sheer weight
00:32:54:18    00:32:56:24    of the utility of their ideas.
00:32:56:25    00:32:58:18    When you go into a lunch counter and it says,
00:32:58:19    00:33:01:29    "Whites Only", uh... you don't have to be told
00:33:02:00    00:33:05:27    that the blacks aren't welcomed, if it says "Whites Only."
00:33:05:28    00:33:10:13    And that's essentially what we've got here.
00:33:10:14    00:33:12:02    By saying 'natural process only',
00:33:12:03    00:33:14:02    they're excluding everything else.
00:33:14:03    00:33:15:12    Nobody is suppressing any data.
00:33:15:13    00:33:17:15    (Bruce Alberts) Where do we find this published?
00:33:17:16    00:33:19:22    We have to understand that they have a different motivation.
00:33:19:23    00:33:21:02    They're not trying to do science,
00:33:21:03    00:33:24:02    they're trying to support their view of the world
00:33:24:03    00:33:27:28    which makes them feel that they need to believe
00:33:27:29    00:33:30:27    that evolution happened
00:33:30:28    00:33:33:03    through a different mechanism than it actually happened.
00:33:33:04    00:33:39:00    It becomes a Godless conspiracy when a community of people
00:33:39:01    00:33:40:20    will not allow it to be challenged.
00:33:40:21    00:33:41:24    (Jack Krebs) Let's talk about Calvert.
00:33:41:25    00:33:44:01    Calvert is totally committed to this idea
00:33:44:02    00:33:46:06    that naturalism is the enemy.
00:33:46:07    00:33:49:06    It's connected to him with Nazi Germany.
00:33:49:07    00:33:51:06    He once wrote a letter in a newspaper
00:33:51:07    00:33:54:14    that compared Kansas Citizens for Science
00:33:54:15    00:33:56:16    to Nazi Storm Troopers.
00:33:56:17    00:33:58:19    He really, truly believes
00:33:58:20    00:34:00:09    that... it is,
00:34:00:10    00:34:03:01    naturalism is the heart of amorality.
00:34:03:02    00:34:08:01    This issue is whether our government
00:34:08:02    00:34:11:25    is going to embrace a naturalistic philosophy.
00:34:11:26    00:34:13:12    That, to me,  is the ultimate issue
00:34:13:13    00:34:15:11    and I think that's inappropriate.
00:34:15:12    00:34:18:09    I think that is a real violation of the constitution.
00:34:18:10    00:34:21:09    I think it would be a tragedy to the world.
00:34:21:10    00:34:23:29    Calvert is a man who, for whatever reason,
00:34:24:00    00:34:28:19    has had some personal conflict or something where he feels
00:34:28:20    00:34:30:13    he's gotta go out and save the world.
00:34:30:14    00:34:32:23    I guess you could say I was probably more
00:34:32:24    00:34:35:07    in the nature of a secular humanist
00:34:35:08    00:34:41:18    and so, I was... my life was based upon human reason.
00:34:41:19    00:34:46:15    And I got into a situation where human reason failed me
00:34:46:16    00:34:50:00    and so, I started looking.
00:34:50:01    00:34:52:17    I started looking for other solutions
00:34:52:18    00:34:55:04    and by happen chance I wound up in a church
00:34:55:05    00:35:00:15    and I started exploring that religion and I found it
00:35:00:16    00:35:03:21    and I have a logical mouth and mind
00:35:03:22    00:35:06:19    and I found it pretty compelling.
00:35:06:20    00:35:08:16    (Interviewer) What was the situation?
00:35:08:17    00:35:10:14    The divorce.
00:35:10:15    00:35:12:02    ♪♪
00:35:12:03    00:35:16:03    (dog barks in distance)
00:35:16:04    00:35:20:06    And, you know, I was 37 years old.
00:35:20:07    00:35:26:04    ♪♪
00:35:26:05    00:35:29:17    
00:35:29:18    00:35:32:12    The situation-- I was married, had two kids,
00:35:32:13    00:35:37:00    I was a Junior in Veterinary School
00:35:37:01    00:35:40:14    and I had pretty decent grades.
00:35:40:15    00:35:45:16    And when I was getting my BS ...I'm not too proud of this
00:35:45:17    00:35:47:28    but I really never had to study much
00:35:47:29    00:35:50:10    and I graduated Cum Laude
00:35:50:11    00:35:53:12    and you know, just didn't drink, didn't smoke.
00:35:53:13    00:35:55:10    A lot of people looked at me and said,
00:35:55:11    00:35:58:05    "you know, boy that's really...he's a good guy."
00:35:58:06    00:36:06:11    I didn't go out with my wife and my life was falling apart.
00:36:06:12    00:36:07:28    I wanted to  drop out of Vet school
00:36:07:29    00:36:12:06    I just was...I could not... I could not go on.
00:36:12:07    00:36:14:27    I just, I couldn't go on.
00:36:14:28    00:36:15:26    I was falling apart,
00:36:15:27    00:36:19:04    in spite of all the outward appearances
00:36:19:05    00:36:23:12    and that's when I came to the realization
00:36:23:13    00:36:26:02    that indeed, I needed something more.
00:36:26:03    00:36:31:02    I needed Jesus in my life and from that point on,
00:36:31:03    00:36:32:24    it has been different.
00:36:32:25    00:36:36:15    My father, my natural father never abused me
00:36:36:16    00:36:41:21    but he beat my mother and he was a pastor
00:36:41:22    00:36:45:16    and he would beat her sometimes an hour
00:36:45:17    00:36:47:07    after preaching his heart out.
00:36:47:08    00:36:50:29    Through my teen years, of course, I got rebellious
00:36:51:00    00:36:54:18    and went through the whole drugs and sexual revolution
00:36:54:19    00:36:59:06    and married the wrong person and he was abusive and beat me
00:36:59:07    00:37:03:05    and shot at me and chased me with an axe
00:37:03:06    00:37:08:00    and um, he was a bad person.
00:37:08:01    00:37:11:05    And so, I got saved  when I was 6 months pregnant
00:37:11:06    00:37:13:08    with my second baby.
00:37:13:09    00:37:19:08    And there's a lot to tell there and I do share it in the book.
00:37:19:09    00:37:22:12    I got saved and I went home and smoked pot
00:37:22:13    00:37:24:13    with my husband, my first husband.
00:37:24:14    00:37:28:24    Um, you know. and he.. and it was a party,
00:37:28:25    00:37:30:28    and he ended up beating me later.
00:37:30:29    00:37:33:02    And I was back at church that weekend,
00:37:33:03    00:37:36:03    crying and broken and sad
00:37:36:04    00:37:41:29    and it was just a process and that's what God is.
00:37:42:00    00:37:46:27    I think it's a process of becoming happy.
00:37:46:28    00:37:49:05    Well, I was born and raised a Catholic but we do belong
00:37:49:06    00:37:53:01    to the Parish in Clay Center and that's where I do my work
00:37:53:02    00:37:56:12    like Eucharistic minister and lecture and uh,
00:37:56:13    00:37:58:05    belong to the women's group there.
00:37:58:06    00:37:59:28    We have three daughters, Max and I have been married
00:38:00:01    00:38:02:17    for about 38 years now, in August,
00:38:02:18    00:38:04:09    and our daughters are all grown.
00:38:04:10    00:38:06:13    They were all great students so they were all, you know,
00:38:06:14    00:38:09:28    in the top 10 or the valedictorian of their class
00:38:09:29    00:38:12:24    because we had emphasized the education too,
00:38:12:25    00:38:14:15    so, we were making sure that they did their studies.
00:38:14:16    00:38:16:10    If they didn't, they couldn't go out for sport
00:38:16:11    00:38:18:09    of they didn't ride their horses on the horse shows.
00:38:18:10    00:38:21:06    (Pedro Irigonegaray) You believe the National Academy of Science
00:38:21:07    00:38:24:09    and all of other major scientific bodies
00:38:24:10    00:38:26:04    in this nation and indeed, the world,
00:38:26:05    00:38:26:23    
00:38:26:24    00:38:29:29    are simply biased against intelligent design?
00:38:30:00    00:38:33:24    I wouldn't say "simply" but I do know that when
00:38:33:25    00:38:37:02    surveys had been taken, whereas 40 percent
00:38:37:03    00:38:38:21    of scientists believe in God,
00:38:38:22    00:38:41:16    only four percent of the National Academy members do.
00:38:41:17    00:38:44:09    And is it your opinion, that evolution,
00:38:44:10    00:38:49:21    as it is taught in mainstream America today, is atheistic?
00:38:49:22    00:38:51:19    
00:38:51:20    00:38:53:20    Well...
00:38:53:21    00:38:54:21    'Yes' or 'No'?!
00:38:54:22    00:38:55:06    Yes!
00:38:55:07    00:38:59:26    This debate is not really about education.
00:38:59:27    00:39:04:26    I am not convinced that most of the voices,
00:39:04:27    00:39:07:25    most of the players in this debate
00:39:07:26    00:39:12:21    are truly concerned about the quality of public education.
00:39:12:22    00:39:18:07    I think, most of the players have an agenda
00:39:18:08    00:39:20:11    and they're scared to death--those bad,
00:39:20:12    00:39:23:26    bad Christians are gonna get their foot in the door
00:39:23:27    00:39:27:24    and who knows what will happen then?
00:39:27:25    00:39:31:06    And so, the way that they keep
00:39:31:07    00:39:32:29    those bad,  bad Christians down
00:39:33:00    00:39:38:21    is to just keep putting out that atheistic, materialistic,
00:39:38:22    00:39:43:07    Godless view and indoctrinating our children in public schools
00:39:43:08    00:39:48:04    with that Godless view that God is a joke, He doesn't exist
00:39:48:05    00:39:50:20    and He sure didn't create this and if He did,
00:39:50:21    00:39:52:29    He loused it up, didn't He?
00:39:53:00    00:39:59:01    [birds chirping]
00:39:59:02    00:40:03:18    I have a real standing agreement with myself
00:40:03:19    00:40:06:17    to not talk about my own religious beliefs in public.
00:40:06:18    00:40:11:14    I think my religious beliefs are completely irrelevant
00:40:11:15    00:40:15:01    to what we're doing here
00:40:15:02    00:40:22:06    and to interject that would be as inappropriate
00:40:22:07    00:40:26:18    as what I see Mr. Calvert and the minority doing
00:40:26:19    00:40:29:02    and I will not get involved in that.
00:40:29:03    00:40:32:10    On an electron microscope, I saw this paramecium.
00:40:32:11    00:40:35:02    There's a verse, I think, in Isaiah, about
00:40:35:03    00:40:38:01    your heart leaping with joy and that's what it felt like.
00:40:38:02    00:40:43:12    It felt like...like I couldn't breath anymore,
00:40:43:13    00:40:44:20    but I was still breathing.
00:40:44:21    00:40:46:10    And seeing this picture of this paramecium
00:40:46:11    00:40:48:28    it was such a beautiful, beautiful thing
00:40:48:29    00:40:54:14    and I...and so, yeah, it was like seeing God.
00:40:54:15    00:41:03:15    ♪♪
00:41:05:25    00:41:09:21    How do you explain the large number
00:41:09:22    00:41:14:28    of theists including Evangelical Christians who are scientists,
00:41:14:29    00:41:18:14    that do not see the methodological naturalism
00:41:18:15    00:41:20:04    as a conflict with their faith?
00:41:20:05    00:41:21:06    
00:41:21:07    00:41:23:18    Well, there are a couple of issues here.
00:41:23:19    00:41:26:28    One is that the mere fact that you have somebody
00:41:26:29    00:41:29:25    who holds two beliefs,  A and B, does not show that
00:41:29:26    00:41:32:02    they are logically consistent.
00:41:32:03    00:41:34:14    So, it might be that some of these people are confused.
00:41:34:15    00:41:43:15    ♪♪
00:41:50:11    00:41:55:06    (George Griffith) Any student who brings up the question of creationism
00:41:55:07    00:41:58:00    or any other ideas, would be... whatever the religion might be.
00:41:58:01    00:41:59:00    
00:41:59:01    00:42:02:04    My response is that, you know, I respect what you believe,
00:42:02:05    00:42:06:00    but you don't have to believe the science.
00:42:06:01    00:42:07:15    You just have to understand it.
00:42:07:16    00:42:09:06    (male college student) Coming to college has basically just
00:42:09:07    00:42:10:15    enlightened me to a lot more
00:42:10:16    00:42:12:01    --to a lot of different perspectives
00:42:12:02    00:42:14:01    that I wouldn't have seen if I hadn't come to college
00:42:14:02    00:42:15:14    and experienced more of the world.
00:42:15:15    00:42:18:20    And I am still religious, but I think it's more about
00:42:18:21    00:42:20:12    finding a happy medium, I think.
00:42:20:13    00:42:22:23    I think you can be religious and believe in evolution,
00:42:22:24    00:42:24:14    but...I don't know.
00:42:24:15    00:42:25:26    I think people kind of force you
00:42:25:27    00:42:27:11    into one corner or the other
00:42:27:12    00:42:28:22    and I don't really think that's fair.
00:42:28:23    00:42:31:01    I used to be a young earth creationist,
00:42:31:02    00:42:34:08    but I became a theistic evolutionist in college.
00:42:34:09    00:42:37:09    I kind of knew evolution had some background,
00:42:37:10    00:42:39:00    you know that was possibly valid
00:42:39:01    00:42:40:10    because it was always alluded to.
00:42:40:11    00:42:44:03    But, when I took that Genetics and Evolution course in college,
00:42:44:04    00:42:46:16    I mean then, theologically that rocked my world.
00:42:46:17    00:42:48:16    The science of it was very straight forward.
00:42:48:17    00:42:51:19    The conclusion was, "there it is."
00:42:51:20    00:42:55:17    I mean, that's, there was nothing to say about that.
00:42:55:18    00:42:57:13    So, how to work through the theology of that?
00:42:57:14    00:43:01:26    Well, I was fortunate enough to go to a Methodist college
00:43:01:27    00:43:05:06    where we had a Reverend, the campus minister,
00:43:05:07    00:43:08:07    who helped me work through the theological issues,
00:43:08:08    00:43:09:15    who helped me to understand
00:43:09:16    00:43:13:18    that I didn't have to choose between God or Science.
00:43:13:19    00:43:17:14    And I came to find that
00:43:17:15    00:43:20:07    God and Darwin are just okay with each other.
00:43:20:08    00:43:22:18    (Male College Student) Creationism and Evolution,
00:43:22:19    00:43:24:00    they aren't  mutually exclusive.
00:43:24:01    00:43:25:14    I mean, people are kind of holding on
00:43:25:15    00:43:27:04    to this strict view of creationism
00:43:27:05    00:43:28:14    that states that God had to
00:43:28:15    00:43:30:02    create the world  in seven days,
00:43:30:03    00:43:32:18    but, I mean, even if you did believe in God,
00:43:32:19    00:43:34:10    there are ways you can get around that
00:43:34:11    00:43:35:15    and to have  both exist.
00:43:35:16    00:43:36:25    But just to deny that evolution
00:43:36:26    00:43:39:23    exists at all, I think that's...
00:43:39:24    00:43:40:24    ...ridiculous.
00:43:40:25    00:43:42:15    I think it's something that needs to be
00:43:42:16    00:43:43:17    looked into more.
00:43:43:18    00:43:45:10    Considered.
00:43:45:11    00:43:46:20    (Bill Harris) The evolutionary story
00:43:46:21    00:43:49:03    is a world view story
00:43:49:04    00:43:53:26    for a certain segment of the population that basically says,
00:43:53:27    00:43:56:23    everything we have here, everything we see on the earth,
00:43:56:24    00:43:59:13    everything that ever has been, or will be, is just the product
00:43:59:14    00:44:02:14    of random interactions of matter and energy.
00:44:02:15    00:44:07:05    And there's no plan, no intention, no guiding... light?
00:44:07:06    00:44:11:20    The 90 percent of the iceberg that's under the water
00:44:11:21    00:44:14:12    in this movement,  are biblical literalists.
00:44:14:13    00:44:17:07    People who really believe the earth is 6,000 years old
00:44:17:08    00:44:19:08    and there was a global flood
00:44:19:09    00:44:22:00    and all the species were created all at the same time.
00:44:22:01    00:44:24:27    I look at these scriptures, the total...
00:44:24:28    00:44:28:27    in totality as the absolute inherent word of God,
00:44:28:28    00:44:30:04    and that we can't pick and choose
00:44:30:05    00:44:32:03    what we want it to be and what we don't.
00:44:32:04    00:44:36:06    They cannot allow themselves to be influenced by data
00:44:36:07    00:44:39:22    because if they doubt at all, they're doomed for all eternity.
00:44:39:23    00:44:40:20    That's their belief.
00:44:40:21    00:44:42:27    They're afraid of the facts,
00:44:42:28    00:44:45:11    because the facts might cause them to lose their faith
00:44:45:12    00:44:47:03    and eternal happiness.
00:44:47:04    00:44:50:17    I remember clearly, sitting in a public classroom,
00:44:50:18    00:44:56:21    being told that uh... about evolution.
00:44:56:22    00:45:00:11    I remember clearly the picture on the page in the text,
00:45:00:12    00:45:02:28    It had, it was the "big bang" theory
00:45:02:29    00:45:06:22    and it had lots of purple and pink splashes.
00:45:06:23    00:45:10:02    And I remember clearly thinking...
00:45:10:03    00:45:13:20    my mom and dad dragged me to Sunday school
00:45:13:21    00:45:16:14    all those years and they lied to me.
00:45:16:15    00:45:18:23    (Burt Humburg) Creationists fear evolution
00:45:18:24    00:45:22:13    because of some of the theological implications of it.
00:45:22:14    00:45:25:03    Take for example,
00:45:25:04    00:45:27:27    if the theory of evolution is correct,
00:45:27:28    00:45:30:02    and we evolved from ape-like ancestors.
00:45:30:03    00:45:33:25    Oh, what does that mean when "God made us in his own image"
00:45:33:26    00:45:35:17    is what it says in the bible?
00:45:35:18    00:45:41:06    
00:45:41:07    00:45:43:03    Are we a design or an occurrence?
00:45:43:04    00:45:45:16    If we are an occurrence, then we essentially have
00:45:45:17    00:45:46:27    no inherent purpose.
00:45:46:28    00:45:52:04    So, ethical decisions stand have no relationship to the...
00:45:52:05    00:45:55:19    you know theological concepts.
00:45:55:20    00:45:57:11    They are based solely on human reason.
00:45:57:12    00:45:59:20    It seems like it has to do more with,
00:45:59:21    00:46:03:00    when students have to think
00:46:03:01    00:46:04:16    there's less purpose for their life
00:46:04:17    00:46:06:04    'cause when you put a 'natural only',
00:46:06:05    00:46:08:06    'here by some random chance',
00:46:08:07    00:46:10:28    they don't have as much value for their life.
00:46:10:29    00:46:11:29    They don't have as much purpose
00:46:12:00    00:46:14:12    it seems to be easier for suicide to happen.
00:46:14:13    00:46:17:09    It seems to be easier for them to misuse their bodies.
00:46:17:10    00:46:19:07    It seems to be easier for a lot of these things,
00:46:19:08    00:46:23:04    crazy things that are going on, in a greater amount
00:46:23:05    00:46:26:13    that we don't seem to have a good handle why it's happening
00:46:26:14    00:46:29:05    and some of us wonder, if this might be the reason.
00:46:29:06    00:46:33:00    Evolution was the greatest betrayal of my life!
00:46:33:01    00:46:34:27    The greatest!!
00:46:34:28    00:46:39:10    And that caused me to doubt teachers, professors,
00:46:39:11    00:46:41:16    more than anything else that ever happened to me
00:46:41:17    00:46:43:12    in my entire lifetime.
00:46:43:13    00:46:44:26    The greatest betrayal!
00:46:44:27    00:46:47:24    When you are told that something is black
00:46:47:25    00:46:49:07    and it's actually white,
00:46:49:08    00:46:52:12    that interferes with your scientific career.
00:46:52:13    00:46:57:09    If you cannot find God in the world that we know
00:46:57:10    00:47:00:21    and properly understand scientifically,
00:47:00:22    00:47:03:12    you will not find God in the world
00:47:03:13    00:47:07:02    that we don't know and can't understand.
00:47:07:03    00:47:09:01    Now you sit and think about that for a minute,
00:47:09:02    00:47:12:16    and what it does is it brings your religion
00:47:12:17    00:47:15:17    straight into the world of science.
00:47:15:18    00:47:19:13    And instead of scientific research being a threat
00:47:19:14    00:47:22:03    to our religion because the more that science discovers,
00:47:22:04    00:47:25:00    it pushes God a little bit further and further back.
00:47:25:01    00:47:27:08    What it means is that the more science discovers,
00:47:27:09    00:47:29:00    the more and more we say,
00:47:29:01    00:47:32:00    "what a wonderful world this is that God has made."
00:47:32:01    00:47:34:03    From the philosophical point of view.
00:47:34:04    00:47:39:24    Members of the committee, Mr. Irigonegaray,
00:47:39:25    00:47:44:19    I'd like to introduce to you, Dr. John Sanford.
00:47:44:20    00:47:47:16    I've been a Cornell professor for 25 years.
00:47:47:17    00:47:49:19    I have 70 publications
00:47:49:20    00:47:54:21    in scientific journals, over 25 patents.
00:47:54:22    00:47:58:09    My main claim to fame is that I'm the primary inventor
00:47:58:10    00:48:00:20    of the gene gun technology which has been,
00:48:00:21    00:48:03:23    has been used extensively in plant genetic engineering.
00:48:03:24    00:48:08:26    When the gene gun technology was developed, I was very blessed
00:48:08:27    00:48:12:14    and able to get a lot of revenue from that.
00:48:12:15    00:48:16:18    It was a very financially rewarding invention
00:48:16:19    00:48:19:09    which eventually let me leave Cornell.
00:48:19:10    00:48:23:15    Most of my career, I've been an atheistic evolutionist.
00:48:23:16    00:48:26:17    Later in life, I became a theistic evolutionist,
00:48:26:18    00:48:30:14    and later became  a Biblical Christian
00:48:30:15    00:48:35:25    and so I'm sure I see the prosecutor will be asking me.
00:48:35:26    00:48:37:28    I do have a Christian perspective.
00:48:37:29    00:48:40:08    When I was in college and Graduate School
00:48:40:09    00:48:43:24    and early in my career,  it was more than a foundation.
00:48:43:25    00:48:45:05    It was actually my religion.
00:48:45:06    00:48:47:26    I've based my personal ambitions and hopes
00:48:47:27    00:48:50:23    and dreams upon it, helping to continue
00:48:50:24    00:48:52:13    the evolution of the human species
00:48:52:14    00:48:55:19    and I define my morality based upon what will...
00:48:55:20    00:48:57:00    advance evolution.
00:48:57:01    00:49:00:09    ♪♪
00:49:00:10    00:49:01:20    (Pedro Irigonegaray) It is fine to discuss
00:49:01:21    00:49:04:09    in a comparative religion course.
00:49:04:10    00:49:07:02    It is fine to discuss this in Theology,
00:49:07:03    00:49:08:12    but not in Science.
00:49:08:13    00:49:10:13    These are not appropriate methods.
00:49:10:14    00:49:10:25    
00:49:10:26    00:49:12:14    What about,  what about evolution?
00:49:12:15    00:49:18:00    [Simultaneous Talking]
00:49:18:01    00:49:20:07    That happens to be the way the universe works,
00:49:20:08    00:49:22:22    and evolution is just the opposite.
00:49:22:23    00:49:24:00    [Simultaneous talking]
00:49:24:01    00:49:25:28    And that's not religion.
00:49:25:29    00:49:32:15    Devolution-- that word came
00:49:32:16    00:49:38:01    about 300 years before the word evolution, and that is the--
00:49:38:02    00:49:41:24    what the core of this dispute is about.
00:49:41:25    00:49:44:29    The entire universe works on 'devolution'.
00:49:45:00    00:49:48:06    There is nothing in the universe, never has been,
00:49:48:07    00:49:51:09    never will be that is functioned on evolution.
00:49:51:10    00:49:55:16    And that is the... the core of this dispute.
00:49:55:17    00:49:59:26    Science says devolution rules the universe
00:49:59:27    00:50:03:29    and what they're being taught in school is exactly the opposite.
00:50:04:00    00:50:06:00    (Interviewer)  Have you got evidence of this?
00:50:06:01    00:50:08:27    Evidence?!
00:50:08:28    00:50:12:22    Ask anybody,  "how does the universe work?"
00:50:12:23    00:50:15:21    And they will tell you, it's running down.
00:50:15:22    00:50:18:25    The finger of time points downward.
00:50:18:26    00:50:20:15    Ask any scientist.
00:50:20:16    00:50:22:23    Ask any engineer.
00:50:22:24    00:50:24:23    The finger of time points downward!
00:50:24:24    00:50:26:22    And what does the evolutionist say?
00:50:26:23    00:50:28:19    The finger of time points upward.
00:50:28:20    00:50:30:09    It's an inverted fantasy.
00:50:30:10    00:50:33:08    There's no issue on which there...
00:50:33:09    00:50:36:03    you can't find some scientist to take an extreme view,
00:50:36:04    00:50:39:07    whether it's global warming, or you know,
00:50:39:08    00:50:41:29    arsenic is good for you, or fluorine is bad for you.
00:50:42:00    00:50:44:00    The history of science is filled with people
00:50:44:01    00:50:50:07    who were Fringe theorists, who thought wrong things.
00:50:50:08    00:50:52:00    Most biologists would agree
00:50:52:01    00:50:55:12    that the human body is much more complex
00:50:55:13    00:50:58:07    than any human technology that's ever been developed.
00:50:58:08    00:51:00:24    The space shuttle is enormously simple.
00:51:00:25    00:51:04:17    It's child's play compared to the design of the human body.
00:51:04:18    00:51:08:10    So, seeking for a technological analogy to life,
00:51:08:11    00:51:11:13    I've had to go into fiction, fictional technology --
00:51:11:14    00:51:13:25    the SS Enterprise.
00:51:13:26    00:51:16:26    Okay, this spaceship with warp speed engines
00:51:16:27    00:51:20:11    and a holodeck is a closer analogy to the human body
00:51:20:12    00:51:23:22    than any other technology that we can think of.
00:51:23:23    00:51:25:28    When we talk about historical science
00:51:25:29    00:51:30:19    from a genetic point of view, the most popular view
00:51:30:20    00:51:33:15    is that the genome is the book of life.
00:51:33:16    00:51:36:26    That's a term that's often used in genetics
00:51:36:27    00:51:38:26    and that it is an instruction manual.
00:51:38:27    00:51:42:11    And the central axiom of genetics,
00:51:42:12    00:51:44:09    from an evolutionary point of view,
00:51:44:10    00:51:46:24    is that the author of the book of life
00:51:46:25    00:51:50:02    are misspellings and natural selection.
00:51:50:03    00:51:51:29    If you have a little red wagon
00:51:52:00    00:51:54:29    and you have the instruction manual that goes with it,
00:51:55:00    00:51:57:29    including the manual that instructs how to make the metal,
00:51:58:00    00:51:59:19    how to make the wheels, how to make the rubber,
00:51:59:20    00:52:01:24    how to make the paint and how to put it all together,
00:52:01:25    00:52:06:19    and if you start to introduce typographical errors into that
00:52:06:20    00:52:09:28    and you select for superior performance of the wagon,
00:52:09:29    00:52:12:29    okay that's mutation and selection.
00:52:13:00    00:52:17:10    It will eventually evolve into a superior form of technology.
00:52:17:11    00:52:18:28    So, over time you might imagine
00:52:18:29    00:52:23:21    that misspellings help create an internal combustion engine
00:52:23:22    00:52:26:12    and power brakes and all the rest
00:52:26:13    00:52:27:18    to create a modern automobile.
00:52:27:19    00:52:31:16    If we imagine more misspellings in the manuals,
00:52:31:17    00:52:35:06    perhaps it will develop into a higher form of technology.
00:52:35:07    00:52:38:03    If you invoke even more mutation and selection,
00:52:38:04    00:52:40:15    you might get to the final step, which is the next one,
00:52:40:16    00:52:46:09    which brings us to the Starship Enterprise.
00:52:46:10    00:52:49:17    That is a very reasonable analogy
00:52:49:18    00:52:53:26    for describing the primary axiom of evolutionary theory today.
00:52:53:27    00:52:55:05    
00:52:55:06    00:52:57:08    (interviewer) How would you refer to these things?
00:52:57:09    00:52:57:15    
00:52:57:16    00:53:00:15    Disingenuine, false, misleading,
00:53:00:16    00:53:02:17    intended to mislead, right?
00:53:02:18    00:53:05:21    Reflective of their personal religious views,
00:53:05:22    00:53:07:12    not of science, right?
00:53:07:13    00:53:11:18    Politically motivated for a variety of reasons.
00:53:11:19    00:53:13:12    I don't know what else I could say about them.
00:53:13:13    00:53:16:03    I haven't heard anybody use the 'L' word yet.
00:53:16:04    00:53:17:10    
00:53:17:11    00:53:19:19    Oh yeah, you could also say they're lying.
00:53:19:20    00:53:20:09    [ Music ]
00:53:20:10    00:53:23:09    Darwin, you know, in his latter years,
00:53:23:10    00:53:25:21    he became a Christian and he... he said,
00:53:25:22    00:53:28:04    "You know what? I was wrong in this you know.
00:53:28:05    00:53:29:23    "You know, I just meant this to be a theory.
00:53:29:24    00:53:30:29    "I didn't mean it for,  you know,
00:53:31:00    00:53:33:08    people to actually believe it."
00:53:33:09    00:53:34:27    It's the truth.
00:53:34:28    00:53:36:02    
00:53:36:03    00:53:38:10    And now, if the person who, you know,
00:53:38:11    00:53:40:26    they named the theory after --Darwin's theory--
00:53:40:27    00:53:44:26    came out and said, "No, this was wrong, you know,
00:53:44:27    00:53:47:09    God is the Creator of the Universe."
00:53:47:10    00:53:50:14    Then, why put any stock in it at all?
00:53:50:15    00:53:56:29    ♪♪
00:53:57:00    00:53:57:18    
00:53:57:19    00:54:01:06    (kids making monkey sounds)
00:54:01:07    00:54:05:15    
00:54:05:16    00:54:09:08    Sir, you've told me that in your opinion,
00:54:09:09    00:54:10:15    evolutionary science,
00:54:10:16    00:54:12:15    as it's taught across America today,
00:54:12:16    00:54:15:10    is atheistic, correct?
00:54:15:11    00:54:16:05    That's correct.
00:54:16:06    00:54:20:08    Are you aware of the fact that the Kansas Standards encouraged
00:54:20:09    00:54:24:27    an open discussion by students on issues of ethics,
00:54:24:28    00:54:26:29    morals, all of those issues are covered
00:54:27:00    00:54:28:00    in the Kansas Standards?
00:54:28:01    00:54:30:09    I think that's bogus, if what you're going--
00:54:30:10    00:54:31:11    You think it's bogus?!
00:54:31:12    00:54:31:27    Yes, I do.
00:54:31:28    00:54:34:18    Our school district had a policy that they were not
00:54:34:19    00:54:37:11    to discriminate because of race, creed, or religion.
00:54:37:12    00:54:40:05    And yet the ACLU came into my school district
00:54:40:06    00:54:42:08    and dictated what was to be taught.
00:54:42:09    00:54:43:14    And are you aware...
00:54:43:15    00:54:47:10    that the constitution of the United States forbids,
00:54:47:11    00:54:51:24    forbids someone like you, no matter how legitimate...
00:54:51:25    00:54:52:13    (announcer) Two minutes remaining.
00:54:52:14    00:54:55:04    ... your religious views may be to you,
00:54:55:05    00:54:59:02    and how well we may desire to protect them,
00:54:59:03    00:55:02:20    from teaching those views to children in schools.
00:55:02:21    00:55:03:21    I object!
00:55:03:22    00:55:05:25    He is saying what I do in the classroom.
00:55:05:26    00:55:07:00    Once again...
00:55:07:01    00:55:11:08    Excuse me, this question is asking him for legal opinion
00:55:11:09    00:55:13:03    about the United States Constitution.
00:55:13:04    00:55:14:29    This witness is a biology teacher and
00:55:15:00    00:55:16:29    He is not confident to answer such a question
00:55:17:00    00:55:17:26    and he should not be asked that.
00:55:17:27    00:55:18:18    (Pedro) I'm not asking him...
00:55:18:19    00:55:20:02    I request a ruling from the chair.
00:55:20:03    00:55:22:07    I'm not asking for a legal opinion, for heaven's sakes.
00:55:22:08    00:55:24:24    Does somebody who is a materialist have the right
00:55:24:25    00:55:26:15    to go into the classroom?
00:55:26:16    00:55:30:20    I have friends who, once again, berate students
00:55:30:21    00:55:35:06    and say that we will not address any other opinions
00:55:35:07    00:55:37:08    than what's listed in the text and yet,
00:55:37:09    00:55:40:27    I do not know of any of them who have been reassigned
00:55:40:28    00:55:45:16    or threatened to be fired for taking that position.
00:55:45:17    00:55:47:02    (mouths words) Thank you.
00:55:47:03    00:55:49:18    Thank you sir, Nothing further.
00:55:49:19    00:55:55:03    
00:55:55:04    00:55:56:21    
00:55:56:22    00:55:59:26    I appreciate your work and I apologize
00:55:59:27    00:56:03:16    for the ill-mannered way that you've been addressed.
00:56:03:17    00:56:04:13    Thank you.
00:56:04:14    00:56:07:17    You know,  I get emails both ways.
00:56:07:18    00:56:11:18    Typically, the emails would say, "you're an idiot and an ass
00:56:11:19    00:56:13:20    "and a fool and I'm embarrassed for you..."
00:56:13:21    00:56:14:25    and all those sort of things.
00:56:14:26    00:56:17:16    They usually have profanity
00:56:17:17    00:56:21:14    and are usually vulgar and obnoxious.
00:56:21:15    00:56:24:15    The ugliness in the name-calling,
00:56:24:16    00:56:31:08    the phone calls, the threats, those are all real.
00:56:31:09    00:56:36:12    These individuals look at it in terms of Jesus vs. the devil.
00:56:36:13    00:56:41:25    It's not easy but it is a lot easier
00:56:41:26    00:56:44:07    than to remain indifferent.
00:56:44:08    00:56:47:29    The witness that is most interesting
00:56:48:00    00:56:50:20    was one that didn't actually present evidence.
00:56:50:21    00:56:53:06    It's the teacher  from Rose Hill.
00:56:53:07    00:56:55:26    I thought she was absolutely phenomenal!
00:56:55:27    00:56:58:14    That talks about how, what happens actually
00:56:58:15    00:57:01:17    in the classroom and the troubles,
00:57:01:18    00:57:05:02    the challenges that she has with trying
00:57:05:03    00:57:09:10    to adhere to the dogma of evolution.
00:57:09:11    00:57:10:00    
00:57:10:01    00:57:11:15    When I presented evolution to them,
00:57:11:16    00:57:15:20    the content somehow impacted their conscience.
00:57:15:21    00:57:19:27    It took from them... and this was expressed to me by students.
00:57:19:28    00:57:24:08    it took from them the idea that they were born for a purpose.
00:57:24:09    00:57:27:14    This was something, something completely counter
00:57:27:15    00:57:32:25    to their mindset and their beliefs and that troubled me.
00:57:32:26    00:57:36:06    (Connie Morris) She was compelling for me just because
00:57:36:07    00:57:37:27    that's where I'm coming from.
00:57:37:28    00:57:38:25    It was talk.
00:57:38:26    00:57:42:00    I can understand, you know, how a teacher feels
00:57:42:01    00:57:48:18    and when she relayed to us that she had this proof
00:57:48:19    00:57:54:08    of last stop kids and when she shared with them darwinism,
00:57:54:09    00:57:57:24    it took away from them, their hope.
00:57:57:25    00:58:00:13    But I still struggled with not knowing
00:58:00:14    00:58:03:25    how to present this information in a way that would not
00:58:03:26    00:58:07:00    negatively impact any of my students beliefs.
00:58:07:01    00:58:08:18    (Harry McDonald) She needs to go back to school
00:58:08:19    00:58:11:11    and learn how to deal with that stuff.
00:58:11:12    00:58:16:24    What discredits her testimony is that she is a teacher
00:58:16:25    00:58:21:29    of some tenure, who hasn't bothered
00:58:22:00    00:58:23:07    to learn how to deal with this issue.
00:58:23:08    00:58:24:11    (Jill Gonzalez Bravo) I am more concerned
00:58:24:12    00:58:25:16    that perhaps 'censorship'
00:58:25:17    00:58:27:25    has been applied to these scientists
00:58:27:26    00:58:31:20    because they hold views that are counter...
00:58:31:21    00:58:36:09    to the secular  and humanist world view.
00:58:36:10    00:58:40:13    
00:58:40:14    00:58:47:25    And second, I'm sorry but I'm just imagining my cross here.
00:58:47:26    00:58:51:20    [ Laughter ]
00:58:51:21    00:58:54:20    She was really concerned about even losing her job,
00:58:54:21    00:58:59:07    about the whole thing  and that was good testimony.
00:58:59:08    00:59:02:27    She was as brave as any person up there.
00:59:02:28    00:59:03:22    Mr. Irigonegaray.
00:59:03:23    00:59:06:11    (Pedro responds) I have no questions.
00:59:06:12    00:59:07:16    (woman) Oh, you're kidding me.
00:59:07:17    00:59:11:06    [Laughter]
00:59:11:07    00:59:12:24    (Pedro Irigonegaray) I have no questions.
00:59:12:25    00:59:14:25    Okay.
00:59:14:26    00:59:14:28    
00:59:14:29    00:59:16:13    Thank you.
00:59:16:14    00:59:19:05    (moderator) Please, that's not appropriate.
00:59:19:06    00:59:21:09    It's about religious discrimination!
00:59:21:10    00:59:22:27    And the issue?
00:59:22:28    00:59:25:10    Sure, and I admit it over and over again,
00:59:25:11    00:59:26:21    this is about religion!
00:59:26:22    00:59:29:00    (interviewer) You think Christians are being discriminated against?
00:59:29:01    00:59:34:14    Yes, when science selectively suppresses the evidence,
00:59:34:15    00:59:37:21    it supports their theistic beliefs.
00:59:37:22    00:59:39:28    I mean, I'm a young earth creationist.
00:59:39:29    00:59:42:13    There are those who believe in intelligent design
00:59:42:14    00:59:48:12    and for a school to teach evolution as undisputed fact,
00:59:48:13    00:59:51:15    puts it in conflict with how I'm trying to teach my children
00:59:51:16    00:59:55:17    or grand-children my belief about the historical aspects
00:59:55:18    00:59:59:02    of the origin of the universe and man
00:59:59:03    01:00:01:16    and those kinds  of issues.
01:00:01:17    01:00:04:17    I'm not saying Kansas is like the Middle East
01:00:04:18    01:00:08:02    [laughs] but you could become.
01:00:08:03    01:00:10:11    If this movement increases in intensity,
01:00:10:12    01:00:12:28    you could become a lot like some of these Islamic states
01:00:12:29    01:00:16:13    where, you know, what people do is based on some book,
01:00:16:14    01:00:19:20    it is not scientific, the Koran in that case.
01:00:19:21    01:00:20:21    
01:00:20:22    01:00:23:09    (Connie Morris) This was the most powerful to me--it was Mustafa,
01:00:23:10    01:00:25:04    the journalist from Istanbul.
01:00:25:05    01:00:28:05    It wasn't something I really felt prepared for.
01:00:28:06    01:00:31:29    I just couldn't believe that people around the world
01:00:32:00    01:00:35:10    were so interested in the debate and so
01:00:35:11    01:00:38:23    that, in itself, blew me away.
01:00:38:24    01:00:41:09    You know that we have this big problem of Islamic radicals
01:00:41:10    01:00:43:17    and the widespread hatred of America
01:00:43:18    01:00:46:12    and the West, in general, in the Islamic world.
01:00:46:13    01:00:49:18    One reason of the widespread resentment is that
01:00:49:19    01:00:53:22    Muslims think that the West, and of course, the United States
01:00:53:23    01:00:57:19    is completely a materialistic civilization.
01:00:57:20    01:01:02:14    They think that when they watch western films, when they watch,
01:01:02:15    01:01:03:24    when they read western media
01:01:03:25    01:01:07:10    and when their kids take the western education,
01:01:07:11    01:01:08:29    they think that they will be poisoned
01:01:09:00    01:01:12:00    by an ideology--materialism.
01:01:12:01    01:01:13:22    (Jack Krebs) There's a radical,
01:01:13:23    01:01:15:23    anti-evolutionary,  mostly young,
01:01:15:24    01:01:20:01    earth creationist group in Turkey,
01:01:20:02    01:01:25:15    that also have some connection to some pretty militant Turks
01:01:25:16    01:01:27:23    from a political point of view.
01:01:27:24    01:01:30:10    But the intelligent design network is hooked up
01:01:30:11    01:01:33:04    with these guys because, among other things,
01:01:33:05    01:01:35:02    they like the idea that it's coming from a different
01:01:35:03    01:01:36:08    religious perspective.
01:01:36:09    01:01:38:17    The one of the most popular TV series
01:01:38:18    01:01:43:19    in the 1980s was the "Little House on the Prairie."
01:01:43:20    01:01:45:21    Muslim culture and their families all loved it
01:01:45:22    01:01:46:25    and they said, "oh, look at these
01:01:46:26    01:01:51:27    American values and they're so noble values
01:01:51:28    01:01:53:20    and they just admired it.
01:01:53:21    01:01:56:20    And now, times have changed.
01:01:56:21    01:01:59:18    Now they see MTV, they see the Hollywood and,
01:01:59:19    01:02:03:01    I mean, that's of course, materialism in a cultural sense.
01:02:03:02    01:02:05:15    I mean material in terms of hedonism and just caring
01:02:05:16    01:02:10:09    about profits and not having any ethical values.
01:02:10:10    01:02:13:03    But materialism also has a philosophical side
01:02:13:04    01:02:15:15    and that philosophy is, as we all know,
01:02:15:16    01:02:16:23    it's also called naturalism,
01:02:16:24    01:02:19:23    the idea that nature is all there is.
01:02:19:24    01:02:24:09    And when that idea, when that philosophy
01:02:24:10    01:02:26:12    which has no scientific justification at all,
01:02:26:13    01:02:31:10    becomes the dominant force in science education,
01:02:31:11    01:02:32:09    in the United States,
01:02:32:10    01:02:36:27    what you have is that you will have alienated people.
01:02:36:28    01:02:40:03    You will have, for your Muslims, they will feel alienated.
01:02:40:04    01:02:42:00    They will think that there is a school system
01:02:42:01    01:02:45:03    which imposes on them, on their kids,
01:02:45:04    01:02:48:22    a philosophy which they don't believe
01:02:48:23    01:02:51:15    and which they find to be poisonous
01:02:51:16    01:02:54:28    and which doesn't have any scientific evidence at all.
01:02:54:29    01:02:56:08    (Rachel Robson) The very best science
01:02:56:09    01:02:59:12    in the entire world, in 1200 A.D.
01:02:59:13    01:03:02:24    was being done by Islamic scientists
01:03:02:25    01:03:04:05    who were devout Muslims.
01:03:04:06    01:03:06:24    There are all sorts of incredible things that we have,
01:03:06:25    01:03:10:05    that we wouldn't have if it hadn't been for Islamic science.
01:03:10:06    01:03:13:05    Now round about 1200-1300 A.D.,
01:03:13:06    01:03:16:00    an idea started getting increasingly more accepted
01:03:16:01    01:03:17:09    in the Islamic world
01:03:17:10    01:03:20:16    that the rules of science were irreconcilable
01:03:20:17    01:03:22:26    with the belief in God.
01:03:22:27    01:03:27:26    And that believing that the world, uhh...
01:03:27:27    01:03:32:00    believing in looking for natural causes for natural effects
01:03:32:01    01:03:36:15    undercut one's belief in 'the Divine'
01:03:36:16    01:03:40:18    and so there were fights about that
01:03:40:19    01:03:43:00    but that idea became more and more accepted
01:03:43:01    01:03:44:27    and it killed Islamic science.
01:03:44:28    01:03:46:02    We have been listening to the experts here
01:03:46:03    01:03:48:00    in the last few days.
01:03:48:01    01:03:50:02    I mean when you look at the older fossil record,
01:03:50:03    01:03:51:26    the Cambrian explosion, when you look at the
01:03:51:27    01:03:54:29    irreducible complexity in the cell,
01:03:55:00    01:03:58:05    it is clear that blind chance and natural law
01:03:58:06    01:04:01:24    cannot create the complexity of life.
01:04:01:25    01:04:04:07    It's very evident and this...
01:04:04:08    01:04:06:10    while it's very evident, if you insist that,
01:04:06:11    01:04:10:08    "no, we will never ever allow anything besides this
01:04:10:09    01:04:10:24    "in our textbooks,
01:04:10:25    01:04:12:23    in our culture, in our country."
01:04:12:24    01:04:15:16    then people  will think that,
01:04:15:17    01:04:18:15    "oh, this a nation under materialism."
01:04:18:16    01:04:21:04    It's true that there is a scientific controversy
01:04:21:05    01:04:22:13    and the controversy should be thought.
01:04:22:14    01:04:25:19    Otherwise, I would say it's really bad for
01:04:25:20    01:04:28:17    the education standard of Kansas.
01:04:28:18    01:04:30:28    But besides that, it would be bad
01:04:30:29    01:04:34:03    for the understanding between people,
01:04:34:04    01:04:37:23    especially of the Islamic world and the United States.
01:04:37:24    01:04:39:13    I assure you, what we debate here
01:04:39:14    01:04:42:14    will be on the news in Turkey in a few days.
01:04:42:15    01:04:46:09    When you have decision,  it will be all in the news  in Turkey,
01:04:46:10    01:04:48:09    in Arabic world, in many countries.
01:04:48:10    01:04:49:17    People are watching this very closely.
01:04:49:18    01:04:53:19    (Connie Morris) And then, when Mustafa shared that this debate
01:04:53:20    01:04:59:28    is being accurately portrayed in Istanbul and around the world
01:04:59:29    01:05:01:21    and particularly, in the Middle East
01:05:01:22    01:05:05:01    that they are accurately portraying it on the front pages
01:05:05:02    01:05:13:05    as "Kansas working to refute Darwinism
01:05:13:06    01:05:17:22    "and bring down the religion of materialism
01:05:17:23    01:05:24:05    and coming out of the godlessness of America."
01:05:24:06    01:05:27:29    And the fact that that was sending signals of hope
01:05:28:00    01:05:34:26    to his people  and hope that these radicals
01:05:34:27    01:05:39:20    that think that we are so godless and such an evil society
01:05:39:21    01:05:42:18    that they must destroy us.
01:05:42:19    01:05:45:26    See, that terrorism... well, you know,
01:05:45:27    01:05:49:17    we don't expect anything awful to happen here today
01:05:49:18    01:05:53:23    but they do, on a daily basis
01:05:53:24    01:05:57:13    and this was a signal of hope to them.
01:05:57:14    01:05:59:27    If they could just calm down those radical terrorists
01:06:00:00    01:06:04:00    and get them to stop blowing themselves up on the bus
01:06:04:01    01:06:07:03    and out in the school house playgrounds and so on,
01:06:07:04    01:06:10:06    then their life would certainly be a lot better.
01:06:10:07    01:06:16:10    Of course, Rachel Robson just nailed that on the head
01:06:16:11    01:06:20:19    when she did her little talk at the press conference that night
01:06:20:20    01:06:22:09    when she said, in summary...
01:06:22:10    01:06:24:12    If you adopt intelligent design,
01:06:24:13    01:06:27:12    fundamentalist Muslims won't hate America as much.
01:06:27:13    01:06:29:24    (man remarks) There you go, that was his testimony.
01:06:29:25    01:06:35:06    And when he got done testifying, I went out in the stairwell
01:06:35:07    01:06:38:00    and I went up the few levels and I cried.
01:06:38:01    01:06:40:29    For the first time, I cried.
01:06:41:00    01:06:44:14    And it just, it was overwhelming to think that
01:06:44:15    01:06:49:04    this has international implications.
01:06:49:05    01:06:49:15    ♪♪
01:06:49:16    01:06:54:09    Yeah! for intelligent design, you know,
01:06:54:10    01:06:55:24    bringing the world together.
01:06:55:25    01:06:58:00    
01:06:58:01    01:06:59:19    (woman on street) I just think, you know,
01:06:59:20    01:07:02:04    why can't you present everything?
01:07:02:05    01:07:06:07    I mean nobody is saying that... I mean, nothing is positive.
01:07:06:08    01:07:09:06    You cannot prove either one.
01:07:09:07    01:07:10:26    It's all theory.
01:07:10:27    01:07:13:12    So why can't you present all theory?
01:07:13:13    01:07:15:07    You're not telling these children.
01:07:15:08    01:07:17:09    You're not pushing anything down their throats.
01:07:17:10    01:07:20:09    There's so much that passes these days
01:07:20:10    01:07:23:13    in public debate that is wrong
01:07:23:14    01:07:25:29    but we think, "well, it's balanced
01:07:26:00    01:07:29:29    just because  it's another view point."
01:07:30:00    01:07:36:17    So we haven't taught ourselves, as a society, to differentiate.
01:07:36:18    01:07:38:16    We just listen to everything and say, "it's equal,"
01:07:38:17    01:07:40:17    but it isn't equal.
01:07:40:18    01:07:41:19    
01:07:41:20    01:07:43:12    (Pedro Irigonegaray) This involves Kansas children,
01:07:43:13    01:07:45:11    This involves their future,
01:07:45:12    01:07:48:27    and it is intellectually dishonest
01:07:48:28    01:07:51:05    to do this  to Kansas children.
01:07:51:06    01:07:53:08    This is extremely important!
01:07:53:09    01:07:56:21    I have never had a more important case.
01:07:56:22    01:07:58:02    (Pedro Irigonegaray) But you would agree with me
01:07:58:03    01:08:00:08    that the word 'naturalism'
01:08:00:09    01:08:01:13    is found nowhere in the standards?
01:08:01:14    01:08:02:17    
01:08:02:18    01:08:04:03    I have not read the whole standards
01:08:04:04    01:08:04:29    so, I cannot agree to that.
01:08:05:00    01:08:07:11    You've come here to testify and you have not read
01:08:07:12    01:08:08:24    the entire standards?!
01:08:08:25    01:08:09:15    Of course, not.
01:08:09:16    01:08:13:00    I was asked to testify on areas on my own expertise
01:08:13:01    01:08:17:20    not on things that I don't have any expertise in.
01:08:17:21    01:08:20:18    That would be silly, wouldn't it?
01:08:20:19    01:08:24:08    I don't wanna comment about what is silly in this process.
01:08:24:09    01:08:26:04    But you would agree with me, would you not,
01:08:26:05    01:08:30:04    that the word 'naturalism' is nowhere in the definition
01:08:30:05    01:08:31:07    that you have read?
01:08:31:08    01:08:32:27    In that sentence, it does not appear.
01:08:32:28    01:08:37:17    Is there, in draft 2, any discussion
01:08:37:18    01:08:40:06    about the origin of life?
01:08:43:08    01:08:47:16    Well, I just read the... um,
01:08:47:17    01:08:49:27    I haven't read the entire draft.
01:08:49:28    01:08:51:25    They brought you here to testify about
01:08:51:26    01:08:54:25    the standards for the science education for our children
01:08:54:26    01:08:57:01    and you did not read it, is that correct?
01:08:57:02    01:08:59:27    I haven't read it... no,
01:08:59:28    01:09:00:26    I haven't read  the whole thing.
01:09:00:27    01:09:04:27    I read the portions I was asked to give testimony on.
01:09:04:28    01:09:09:26    Who told you selectively what to read?
01:09:09:27    01:09:12:10    Nobody told me anything, it was sent to me.
01:09:12:11    01:09:14:23    You were instructed to be familiar
01:09:14:24    01:09:17:04    with only a portion, correct?
01:09:17:05    01:09:22:00    I was ins... they asked me for expert testimony
01:09:22:01    01:09:24:00    in various aspects of the changes
01:09:24:01    01:09:25:08    so that they  were suggesting
01:09:25:09    01:09:27:21    to see whether these are reasonable changes.
01:09:27:22    01:09:29:15    (Kathy Martin) Dr. Cross, and I realize how busy you are
01:09:29:16    01:09:31:20    and how your research is very important to you
01:09:31:21    01:09:33:07    and I thank you very much for being here
01:09:33:08    01:09:34:21    with your expert testimony.
01:09:34:22    01:09:35:00    (Dr. Cross responds) You're welcome.
01:09:35:01    01:09:37:23    And I will confess to you that I'm on this committee
01:09:37:24    01:09:39:04    and I'm very interested in science
01:09:39:05    01:09:42:20    but I have not read the second draft word-for-word either
01:09:42:21    01:09:44:13    and since you don't have it, please don't feel bad
01:09:44:14    01:09:46:23    that you haven't read it and I do see some things
01:09:46:24    01:09:48:12    in the introduction that I feel are very...
01:09:48:13    01:09:51:20    or too naturalistic explanations.
01:09:51:21    01:09:53:10    So please don't feel bad
01:09:53:11    01:09:55:06    that you haven't gotten to read the whole thing
01:09:55:07    01:09:57:14    because I've not read it word-for-word myself.
01:09:57:15    01:09:59:28    (Pedro Irigonegaray) This is too good to be true!
01:09:59:29    01:10:01:11    Did I laugh?
01:10:01:12    01:10:07:04    Yeah, I was flabbergasted but...my God,
01:10:07:05    01:10:12:01    with that kind of power, that kind of authority,
01:10:12:02    01:10:15:23    that type of a responsibility for our children
01:10:15:24    01:10:18:24    knowing we were going to go to hearings
01:10:18:25    01:10:25:03    and having one of those three judges
01:10:25:04    01:10:30:23    admit to not reading the standards.
01:10:30:24    01:10:33:15    Shame on her!
01:10:33:16    01:10:35:08      Shame on her!
01:10:35:09    01:10:37:25    ♪♪
01:10:37:26    01:10:39:27    (Pedro Irigonegaray) I'd like to ask you, for the record,
01:10:39:28    01:10:44:00    first, can you tell us how old you believe the earth is?
01:10:44:01    01:10:44:24    I don't know.
01:10:44:25    01:10:46:14    I think it's probably really old.
01:10:46:15    01:10:47:23    How old is 'really old'?
01:10:47:24    01:10:51:04    The young earth creationists have sort of agreed
01:10:51:05    01:10:56:02    to be in the big [inaudible] and let the ID people speak
01:10:56:03    01:10:58:00    for all of anti-evolution
01:10:58:01    01:10:59:16    but in fact there's a pretty big rift
01:10:59:17    01:11:01:15    between the young earthers and the old earthers.
01:11:01:16    01:11:04:01    So by asking him the age of the earth question,
01:11:04:02    01:11:07:09    it wasn't so much to find out whether they were
01:11:07:10    01:11:10:24    'old earth' or 'young earth' but it was interesting
01:11:10:25    01:11:12:27    to watch them 'hmm' and 'ahh'.
01:11:12:28    01:11:14:25    How old is really old?
01:11:14:26    01:11:16:28    I don't really know.
01:11:16:29    01:11:19:10    You have no idea how old the earth is?
01:11:19:11    01:11:21:17    There are theories around that the earth is... um,
01:11:21:18    01:11:23:22    10,000 years old.
01:11:23:23    01:11:26:20    There are theories around that is it 4 billion years old.
01:11:26:21    01:11:27:17    My opinion?!
01:11:27:18    01:11:30:19    Uh, it really wouldn't matter to me
01:11:30:20    01:11:32:12    if it was 100 billion years old.
01:11:32:13    01:11:34:06    [Simultaneous Talking]
01:11:34:07    01:11:35:03    (Pedro Irigonegaray) Dr. Wilson,
01:11:35:04    01:11:39:02    do you have a personal opinion as to how old the earth is?
01:11:39:03    01:11:40:20    
01:11:40:21    01:11:43:21    4.596 billion years.
01:11:43:22    01:11:46:12    I don't work in that area but I don't have any problem
01:11:46:13    01:11:49:25    with the idea that it's 4.5 billion years old but...
01:11:49:26    01:11:51:16    I really don't know, I'm struggling.
01:11:51:17    01:11:53:12    You're struggling with what the age of the earth is?
01:11:53:13    01:11:54:02    Yes! Yeah.
01:11:54:03    01:11:54:24    I'm not sure.
01:11:54:25    01:11:56:07    There's a lot of ways to measure.
01:11:56:08    01:11:57:21    The meteorites are one way,
01:11:57:22    01:11:59:00    there are a lot of elements that can be used,
01:11:59:01    01:12:02:06    a lot of assumptions that can be used
01:12:02:07    01:12:04:00    and those assumptions can be challenged
01:12:04:01    01:12:05:02    so I don't really know.
01:12:05:03    01:12:06:29    What is the range that you're struggling with?
01:12:07:00    01:12:08:19    Oh, I think the range you heard today --
01:12:08:20    01:12:11:15    somewhere between 5,000 and 4 billion.
01:12:11:16    01:12:14:23    [laughter]
01:12:14:24    01:12:17:00    I'm fine with five thousand to a hundred thousand years.
01:12:17:01    01:12:19:18    The years, I believe is 4.6 billion years old.
01:12:19:19    01:12:21:09    The universe is 13.7, plus or minus...
01:12:21:10    01:12:22:15    I didn't ask you about the universe.
01:12:22:16    01:12:23:24    (man over speakerphone) Why are you asking me
01:12:23:25    01:12:25:04    about my personal opinion?
01:12:25:05    01:12:27:15    No, you're here to  answer my questions.
01:12:27:16    01:12:29:17    First of all, what is your personal opinion
01:12:29:18    01:12:31:23    as to what the age of the earth is?
01:12:31:24    01:12:34:05    (Steven Meyer over speakerphone) I understood I was being called
01:12:34:06    01:12:36:03    as an expert witness...
01:12:36:04    01:12:38:24    (Pedro Irigonegaray) What is your personal opinion
01:12:38:25    01:12:41:10    as to what the age of the earth is?
01:12:41:11    01:12:43:01    
01:12:43:02    01:12:45:23    I'm unclear, though I just figured...
01:12:45:24    01:12:47:09    (Pedro interrupts) The question is simple.
01:12:47:10    01:12:52:05    I think it's what physicists, geologists say,
01:12:52:06    01:12:53:24    about 4.6 billion years.
01:12:53:25    01:12:55:06    4.6 billion years.
01:12:55:07    01:12:57:03    Less than a hundred thousand years old.
01:12:57:04    01:12:59:17    Less than ten thousand?
01:12:59:18    01:13:00:18    Conceivably.
01:13:00:19    01:13:02:18    Conceivably less than five thousand?
01:13:02:19    01:13:04:10    
01:13:04:11    01:13:05:24    No.
01:13:05:25    01:13:07:21    (witness over speakerphone) It seems a transparently obvious strategy
01:13:07:22    01:13:09:22    to teach the credibility of your witnesses
01:13:09:23    01:13:11:01    but I will cooperate.
01:13:11:02    01:13:13:14    I don't know and that's my final answer.
01:13:13:15    01:13:15:24    Well, I mean, if we're learning that there's
01:13:15:25    01:13:18:00    such a thing as... uh, [simultaneous talking]
01:13:18:01    01:13:19:22    it really has a function.
01:13:19:23    01:13:21:18    Just please answer my question.
01:13:21:19    01:13:23:17    And well, we'll be learning a lot about molecular biology.
01:13:23:18    01:13:23:18    Sir..!
01:13:23:19    01:13:27:12    (Pedro wispering) Mr. Abrams, please instruct this witness to answer the question.
01:13:27:13    01:13:28:10    The question was...
01:13:28:11    01:13:30:17    and winking at him is not gonna do you any good.
01:13:30:18    01:13:31:01    (witness laughs)
01:13:31:02    01:13:35:02    Anywhere from 4.5 billion years to 10,000 years.
01:13:35:03    01:13:38:05    If it was a multiple choice test and I only have two choices,
01:13:38:06    01:13:40:01    and I couldn't check either one out
01:13:40:02    01:13:42:05    and I wanted to get credit for the question.
01:13:42:06    01:13:42:28    I'd check 'all.'
01:13:42:29    01:13:45:25    And, of course, you have reached that conclusion
01:13:45:26    01:13:48:20    based on the the best scientific evidence available?
01:13:48:21    01:13:50:01    Yes.
01:13:50:02    01:13:53:15    I'm stunned at their level of intellect.
01:13:53:16    01:13:54:27    I'm very proud of them.
01:13:54:28    01:13:58:16    I'm proud of Mr. Calvert for the crew that he put together
01:13:58:17    01:14:01:19    to bring us this presentation
01:14:01:20    01:14:05:18    and this diversity and expertise.
01:14:05:19    01:14:07:04    I thought it went very well today.
01:14:07:05    01:14:09:03    There was a lot of information provided
01:14:09:04    01:14:12:20    and also intellectual stimulation.
01:14:12:21    01:14:14:25    Why did I say that I had not read
01:14:14:26    01:14:19:13    draft 2 of the standards in total?
01:14:19:14    01:14:22:24    Because I wanted the witness that was there
01:14:22:25    01:14:25:20    and any of the other witnesses that had been bashed
01:14:25:21    01:14:29:13    if you wanna call it that or inferred that they were
01:14:29:14    01:14:32:04    in any way, incompetent witnesses
01:14:32:05    01:14:36:00    because they had not read draft 2 in total
01:14:36:01    01:14:39:06    that this was not anything I felt was significant
01:14:39:07    01:14:40:25    because I have not read it in total.
01:14:40:26    01:14:42:18    I had read draft 1...
01:14:42:19    01:14:46:20    so why would I need to read draft 2 totally?
01:14:46:21    01:14:49:14    So I'm not sure why people thought that was such a big deal
01:14:49:15    01:14:51:23    because certainly I've read draft 1 totally.
01:14:51:24    01:14:54:01    I have not read draft 2 totally
01:14:54:02    01:14:56:24    and I don't think that the witnesses that were coming here
01:14:56:25    01:15:00:21    should have been expected to have read draft 2 totally.
01:15:00:22    01:15:03:06    So, I thought it was really impolite of him
01:15:03:07    01:15:06:09    the way he was badgering the witnesses about that point
01:15:06:10    01:15:09:16    and making it as if it was something bad.
01:15:09:17    01:15:11:18    (imitating Pedro) "You're coming to talk to us
01:15:11:19    01:15:13:05    and you have not read it?!"
01:15:13:06    01:15:14:26    You know, just being real aggressive and I thought
01:15:14:27    01:15:19:01    that was not polite at all and really irrelevant.
01:15:19:02    01:15:20:01    [inaudible comment]
01:15:20:02    01:15:22:12    but I have read draft 1, in total, you know,
01:15:22:13    01:15:24:05    that's what people  wanna hear.
01:15:24:06    01:15:26:28    But not draft 2...  totally.
01:15:26:29    01:15:29:29    They're almost  the same.
01:15:30:00    01:15:32:12    ♪♪
01:15:32:13    01:15:37:05    (percussive appergio plays)
01:15:37:06    01:15:52:01    ♪♪
01:15:52:02    01:15:53:06    
01:15:53:07    01:15:56:25    (Burt Humburg) It's important to reach out to creationists
01:15:56:26    01:16:00:11    and to be patient with them.
01:16:00:12    01:16:02:15    I used to be a young earth creationist.
01:16:02:16    01:16:05:21    I know what these guys are going through.
01:16:05:22    01:16:07:27    If I would have heard scientists say
01:16:07:28    01:16:10:02    that these guys are just full of crap,
01:16:10:03    01:16:13:03    I wouldn't have listened to me either.
01:16:13:04    01:16:17:06    They have no scruples or ethics or morals when it comes to lying
01:16:17:07    01:16:18:29    and why can they get away with that?
01:16:19:00    01:16:21:08    Because a little lie here or there
01:16:21:09    01:16:22:23    that keeps them right with God.
01:16:22:24    01:16:24:05    You know, if they're doing God's work,
01:16:24:06    01:16:26:27    lying is okay, you know.
01:16:26:28    01:16:29:14    If you're a "Pro-Lifer"
01:16:29:15    01:16:31:23    and you have to shoot an abortion doctor occasionally
01:16:31:24    01:16:33:20    to make your point, well that's okay.
01:16:33:21    01:16:34:22    You're still right with God.
01:16:34:23    01:16:36:15    So, we can murder, we can lie,
01:16:36:16    01:16:38:04    we can steal, we can do anything else
01:16:38:05    01:16:40:01    as long as we got the right answer
01:16:40:02    01:16:43:03    and we're right with God, it's okay.
01:16:43:04    01:16:46:04    And that's essentially how these people operate.
01:16:46:05    01:16:48:26    Some of them, not all of them, operate that way
01:16:48:27    01:16:52:22    because some of them are too anti-intellectual
01:16:52:23    01:16:55:00    to have that high an intellectual level.
01:16:55:01    01:16:57:03    They just take somebody else's word for it
01:16:57:04    01:16:58:17    and they don't know it's not right
01:16:58:18    01:17:01:29    but the Calverts and the Harrises and the Wells...
01:17:02:00    01:17:04:05    they've got a bigger intellect than that,
01:17:04:06    01:17:06:05    they know what they're doing.
01:17:06:06    01:17:07:26    
01:17:07:27    01:17:09:10    I guess I would just say, you know, it's...
01:17:09:11    01:17:11:04    it's not personal.
01:17:11:05    01:17:14:03    
01:17:14:04    01:17:17:02    For our children!
01:17:17:03    01:17:20:01    For our future!
01:17:20:02    01:17:24:08    I urge you to discard entirely...
01:17:24:09    01:17:28:00    the non-scientific, biased testimony
01:17:28:01    01:17:30:19    that has been presented in this classroom.
01:17:30:20    01:17:34:20    Your duty is to carefully look after the dollars
01:17:34:21    01:17:38:16    that Kansas taxpayers work so hard
01:17:38:17    01:17:39:27    
01:17:39:28    01:17:43:11    in order to pay the state.
01:17:43:12    01:17:46:27    You have a responsibility that is much greater
01:17:46:28    01:17:49:22    than each of individually!
01:17:49:23    01:17:52:14    You have a responsibility to the children
01:17:52:15    01:17:54:03    and the future of this state.
01:17:54:04    01:18:00:23    A responsibility that you have sadly, sadly...
01:18:00:24    01:18:02:03    Failed!
01:18:02:04    01:18:04:11    
01:18:04:12    01:18:05:27    It would be nice to hear testimony
01:18:05:28    01:18:07:24    from scientists supporting evolution
01:18:07:25    01:18:10:04    and to be able to ask questions of them.
01:18:10:05    01:18:12:09    I would dearly have loved to do that
01:18:12:10    01:18:16:25    but it seems they have nothing to say about science to us
01:18:16:26    01:18:20:25    except in press releases  and the 30-second sound bite
01:18:20:26    01:18:25:11    that will undoubtedly be following these hearings.
01:18:25:12    01:18:29:29    Mr. Irigonegaray's bullying tone and lack of respect
01:18:30:00    01:18:32:03    for the scientists and other presenters
01:18:32:04    01:18:36:28    was very disturbing to me during the hearings last week.
01:18:36:29    01:18:41:00    I've been an elementary teacher for over 31 years
01:18:41:01    01:18:45:11    and I'm elected official for only a few months.
01:18:45:12    01:18:47:09    So I guess being openly honest
01:18:47:10    01:18:54:00    and straightforward is still the way I operate.
01:18:54:01    01:18:55:18    Mr. Irigonegaray,
01:18:55:19    01:18:58:08    I believe your behavior here was abusive.
01:18:58:09    01:19:01:16    I do understand abuse and I just want you to know
01:19:01:17    01:19:04:16    that I forgive you, truly.
01:19:04:17    01:19:07:20    
01:19:07:21    01:19:09:29    [people clamoring]
01:19:10:00    01:19:17:00    (organ music playing)
01:19:17:01    01:19:22:01    ♪♪
01:19:22:02    01:19:25:15    I would say we got a great deal of information,
01:19:25:16    01:19:26:23    as it was presented last week
01:19:26:24    01:19:27:26    and I... (fades out)
01:19:27:27    01:19:29:28    ♪♪
01:19:29:29    01:19:37:19    [Simultaneous Talking]
01:19:37:20    01:19:59:03    ♪♪
01:19:59:04    01:20:02:21    (Connie) I believe...
01:20:02:22    01:20:04:16    I believe...
01:20:04:17    01:20:08:21    that in the near future, that Kansas will be hailed
01:20:08:22    01:20:13:25    as one of the forerunners in science.
01:20:13:26    01:20:16:15    True science is about discovery,
01:20:16:16    01:20:21:12    it's about the search, wherever it leads...
01:20:21:13    01:20:24:12    and I believe that Kansas and some other states--
01:20:24:13    01:20:28:11    Ohio, Texas, Georgia, I believe...
01:20:28:12    01:20:35:12    are on the cutting edge of this new science.
01:20:35:13    01:20:41:01    (music fades out)
01:20:41:02    01:20:45:01    
01:20:45:02    01:20:49:07    ♪ Where do you come from? ♪
01:20:49:08    01:20:53:12     ♪ Where do you come from? ♪
01:20:53:13    01:20:56:16    ♪ Where do you come from? ♪
01:20:56:17    01:21:00:15    ♪ I come from the Promised Land. ♪
01:21:00:16    01:21:01:18    ♪♪
01:21:01:19    01:21:06:09    ♪ I come when I am called, ♪
01:21:06:10    01:21:10:11     ♪ I come when I am called, ♪
01:21:10:12    01:21:13:13      ♪ I come when I am called, ♪
01:21:13:14    01:21:17:04    ♪ I come from the Promised Land. ♪
01:21:17:05    01:21:20:02    (Announcer) If you enjoyed Kansas vs. Darwin,
01:21:20:03    01:21:22:13    the DVD is now available to purchase
01:21:22:14    01:21:28:02    for home viewing at www.kansasvdarwin.com.
01:21:28:03    01:21:29:19    
01:21:29:20    01:21:33:06    ♪ I come from the  Promised Land ♪
01:21:33:07    01:21:35:05    
01:21:35:06    01:21:36:16    (barber) Give me your opinion, Rick,
01:21:36:17    01:21:37:14    on evolution.
01:21:37:15    01:21:43:00    ♪♪
01:21:43:01    01:21:44:11    Give me your opinion, Rick.
01:21:44:12    01:21:45:18    Me?
01:21:45:19    01:21:46:17    Yeah!
01:21:46:18    01:21:47:18    Let's hear yours!
01:21:47:19    01:21:51:13    All people were created by God, isn't it?
01:21:55:16    01:21:56:23    It's how we all we got here.
01:21:56:24    01:22:00:13    [clipper buzzing]
01:22:00:14    01:22:01:20    You believe that, Rick?
01:22:01:21    01:22:06:09    That's my opinion, too.
01:22:06:10    01:22:07:04    Do you accept
01:22:07:05    01:22:09:20    the evolutionary theory
01:22:09:21    01:22:10:23    of common  descent
01:22:10:24    01:22:14:17    of humans from pre-hominids?
01:22:14:18    01:22:16:26    From the data that I've been following,
01:22:16:27    01:22:19:05    it's probably not true.
01:22:19:06    01:22:19:06    
01:22:19:07    01:22:20:15    It's extremely unlikely.
01:22:20:16    01:22:21:11    I do not believe
01:22:21:12    01:22:23:03    in a natural explanation
01:22:23:04    01:22:24:19    for the origin of humanity?
01:22:24:20    01:22:25:26    I'm willing to change my mind
01:22:25:27    01:22:28:06    if I find  that out.
01:22:28:07    01:22:29:00    I doubt it.
01:22:29:01    01:22:30:12    I don't accept that as a fact.
01:22:30:13    01:22:31:06    Personally, I don't.
01:22:31:07    01:22:33:02    I'm unconvinced of that idea.
01:22:33:03    01:22:33:20    No.
01:22:33:21    01:22:34:02      No.
01:22:34:03    01:22:34:12        No.
01:22:34:13    01:22:35:21    I don't see any compelling evidence
01:22:35:22    01:22:37:20    that there is a lineage between
01:22:37:21    01:22:39:03    pre-hominids and humans.
01:22:39:04    01:22:40:00    I believe there  was an
01:22:40:01    01:22:41:14    intelligent designer.
01:22:41:15    01:22:42:28    You would agree that that opinion
01:22:42:29    01:22:46:21    is a rather insignificant
01:22:46:22    01:22:48:07    minority that  believes in it?
01:22:48:08    01:22:49:23    Well, I don't feel insignificant
01:22:49:24    01:22:50:27    but I've already conceded
01:22:50:28    01:22:52:19    that I'm in minority, yes.
01:22:52:20    01:22:54:20    
01:22:54:21    01:22:56:12    It takes a whole lot more faith
01:22:56:13    01:23:00:10    to believe in evolution than it does in creation.
01:23:00:11    01:23:01:14    (woman) hmm-hmm.
01:23:01:15    01:23:04:15