WEBVTT

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Tell me where.

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[sil.]

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I got to tell you, what fuck that is.
That’s beautiful… beautiful.

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[sil.]

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Now the question that I think
doesn’t really need to be answered,

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is whether or not the artist does have kind
of have an elite status in our society

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or at least certain artists
and… or at least participate

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in some kind of an elite
establishment in our society.

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I think that really there’s no question that
this is the case that to a… to a certain extent.

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And perhaps the artist and we…

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you know, fancy ourselves even having a certain
amount of freedom or more freedom in a way than

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uh… other groups of people.
The question is, you know,

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what this status really means, what this freedom really
is, whether it really is freedom and whether… you know,

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whether it’s good or bad, whether
it’s something we really want?

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And I think that these questions are important
right now, especially because uh… of recent events

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and the growing awareness that, you know, that our
society is full of corrupt and evil institutions.

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So it becomes important to ask
whether we want to participate

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in these establishments of institutions
and… and are we participating?

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You can say, look, I’m just gonna do my own thing,
but you do a thing. I mean, you make a thing

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and there it is in the world, when something happens to it in
the world and you may not care what happens to it in the world,

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you just did your thing as honestly and,
you know, as right as you thought it was

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and that’s all that you’re responsible for. When I’m
saying is that you’re responsible for something more,

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that you’re responsible for what happens to
that thing. Precisely who is it that buys

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this… this stuff that contemporary artists
are… are making? Where is the market?

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Well, we all know where the market is. Market’s in New York. If you’re
successful as an artist, that’s where you go, That’s where you…

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That’s where you make it. I mean, like you may…
Successful in terms of present recognition…?

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Money and present recognition. You’re
regardless whether we adhere to

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the New York scene or whether we set out and
negate the New York scene, we are responding…

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You’re responding, correct. …to
that as a level higher than we are.

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Right. That’s what I’m trying to say.
Yeah. So the… the thing is I…

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I’m posing the question whether…
Well, we’ll talk about freedom.

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Whether it’s possible at all to understand uh…
the kind of freedom that we have right now

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and that I don’t really think that we
do have freedom. I don’t take that.

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And I don’t think that it’s possible to have freedom. Well, that… that…
that’s a question. I mean, that’s something that has to be fought out

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and worked out whether… whether…
whether it’s possible or not.

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But to recognize that you… I think he is.
He’s a tool.

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Of any… of any group in a ways of victim. That’s… He’s a tool. But the… the
artist is letting himself be a victim. The whole thing that’s created,

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the elitist, you know,
art group is… is money.

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Just to think I was trying…
(inaudible) My question is

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that he was talking about a piece
that he didn’t worry but, (inaudible)

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but 25, which raised the price of the
prints because there are only 75 available.

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So then he went for 25 and
sold them and made a profit.

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The profit was his piece. And so it’s just…
And now… and now there are these mutual funds

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that are buying art and putting it in the
bank. Even out in… in Cleveland in Seattle,

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you know, the same kind of people who are
suddenly like, they’re culture vultures,

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I call them. They… they… they um…

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they’ll latch on… they latch on to what’s
happening in the arts, irregardless,

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like they latched on to radicalism.
It’s so… it’s so terribly vogue

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to watch Abbie Hoffman, you know, on a nation-wide
hook up, telling you that he is a radical

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and he’s gonna blow your mind. You know, and my father
who’s a butcher sits and watch him… watches him on TV and,

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this is wow, you know. And he watches the
TV and the money rolls in then we see,

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and the money rolls in for the strawberry statement,
you know, they tells you all about being a radical

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and… and the money rolls in, you know,
no matter what you’re doing in the arts,

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no matter how free and how radical and how remote
you think you are, you’re still feeding in to this

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culture vulture that’s living on it.

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If somebody had something that someone else wanted and he just couldn’t
trade things for it. So they said, we will have a medium of exchange

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and this way we can set certain
values on things, you see.

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Now the only way you’re gonna change things is to get rid
of every dollar, and then you still haven’t done anything

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because things, the value
of things is quite old.

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Piece of paper and people
(inaudible)your mind.

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It’s not that piece of paper that people was watching or mind.
Oh, hoo, they have done it before, they will do it again.

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All place us in a calculating system, is that you say that…
that construction worker isn’t as good as that doctor.

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You say that he’s not as good as him.
So therefore you’ll get more money

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because the society says that you’re doing
more for the society, that you’re better.

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Well, that’s bullshit because it’s… because that’s
capitalism. It’s based on the system of what’s better

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and… and… and… you know, but the… the
basis is a very materialistic thing

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and these things are totally irrelevant. Now I… I… I’m
just wondering if people… if we all agree that… that we…

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that we as artists who are sensitive
to the uh… to the political situation

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should go on to make art. I… I… I agree
we should, you know, absolutely.

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Abbie Hoffman came here and he said, \"What the fuck are these
red squares around here?\" You ought to be in the streets.

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But I wonder if there are other people. I almost made that decision
for myself, ridiculous to rehearse in a theater 10 hours a day.

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You know, for what? For what?

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It doesn’t do me any good when I walk back into the world.
You know, really doesn’t do me any good any longer,

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no matter if I’ve done a brilliant portrait.
We even feel, many of us feel, I know I do,

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almost intolerable to live day to day
in the world in which we have to live,

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let alone, even think about doing an
interesting good piece of theater

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or writing a good piece of literature or painting
something on a canvas, but the shit comes down.

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I know where the most effective way of
change is and it isn’t in the academy

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and it isn’t behind any (inaudible), and it isn’t in the
theater. And… and I think you really have to see that… that is…

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You know, we all say it
but it’s so true that…

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that what we’re talking about has to do with the
whole system of values, it got to be turned over,

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just flipped over and changed before… and it’s… and
it’s based on money and it’s based on capitalism

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and it’s got to be changed and nothing that we do in
this moment, when art is going to do anything about it

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until the source of that thing is changed,
until we get to the head of this thing.

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You know, you don’t have any control over this product
after you’re finished with it, but you’re more

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of a person after you have created that art

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than you were before. And to me
that’s the measure of good art.

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And to me that’s how you can
contribute to making a better world,

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by making yourself more of a person.
Because to me this is where,

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you know, my generation has failed as we have created
a lot of automatons that aren’t real people.

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And if you can’t become real people

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then no matter you do, you’re not
going to create a real world either.

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But I think the question is what, you know, you’re not
divorced in any way from what’s happening around you,

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I mean, from the time you’re born… Oh, yes, I am. …from the time
you’re born, you know, you’re… you’re acted upon in many, many ways.

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And I think the whole question
we’re discussing here is,

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you know, not only… We’re… we’re not just satisfied to…
to… to do the piece of good work and then put it there

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and let anybody do as they want or
even whether or not like, Ernie says,

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you can even in good conscious go
on producing art when… when the…

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when the thing is so
umm… rotten around you.

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That’s it. At a university you swear by the
Republic, like we for Austria. You swear for…

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You serve the truth and you always
don’t try to find out the truth

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and I can translate it, I could
say it… I could say it in German.

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Then you go out the first
time and start to teach,

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whatever you teach, philosophy,
history, psychology.

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What’s left? If I could say psychology is so fucked up,
the best in psychology… Maybe psychology is so fucked up,

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you wouldn’t believe it. I mean, you start
to teach and right there you have the

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whole system on your back. As soon as
they find out what you’re really up to,

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if you’re just telling the truth,
nothing else. They will throw me out

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or I have to quit. In Austria… like they
just… they just don’t prolong the contract,

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that’s all. Don’t you think the
place will do that? Really is… is…

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some what subvert the institution
from, you know, from in it.

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There are people who think… uh… and about certain
things, other people will think about other things.

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Now Dr. Christian Barnard made the first heart transplant.
There were like 15 or 20 surgeons in the world

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who are ready to take that step.
They were all…

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they were all brought up on the kinds of
backgrounds and this was… was a step.

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Now maybe I’m locked in the western civilization to
think that a heart transplant is somehow valuable,

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you know, in that kind of a continuum. But if you throw out
knowledge which I think he was doing and I really am a champion

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you know, for the idea of knowledge and for the…
for the simple statement that man… The best thing

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he does is think,

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you know, and that all of the… all of the support systems,
eating and so on have to do with, giving him a chance to use

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this… to reflect on what he does. There
is a hierarchy of values there and it…

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And so communication… yeah is necessary but we
tend to be selective about what we communicate,

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something’s are more interesting
and more exciting than others

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and those things are called ideas and it’s dealing
with those…. those ideas as supposed to others…

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[non-English narration]

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Let me explain. Let me… Let me say something to
you. In the… In the history of art at various times

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court art has risen, you
know, art for aristocracy.

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And one thing that they
really found out is realism

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because uh… it’s readily available to anybody. You know, like that you don’t have
to have special education, you know, for them to understand special forms. And so…

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Well, when you say, you head us the truth..

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But well, it’s true. If you look at realistic painting, it’s a matter of
not thinking. You can look at something that… that looks like what you see

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and you immediately dismiss
it and don’t think about it.

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This is difficult to let being… You think somebody… We used
to go right back if you… If I follow you, how you think,

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we’ll go right back, we have an elite that thing
and all other, all the people that work around.

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You see that’s wrong. You guys are
split, that’s wrong. That’s not true.

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It’s not an organic way to live. Look, I want everyone. I really
having (inaudible) no one should work, everyone should sit around and…

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and groove on. You know, they shouldn’t have
to… They should… All have basic subsistence,

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so they’re free to do whatever they
want to do. And what happens then

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is that everybody gets a chance to think.

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You have to have facts. You have to tell them that,
like in the States, like 6% of the population

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(inaudible) northern states use 60%,
60% of resources in this world.

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How should the other part of the world just sit
back and wait till they have fact all about this.

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You have to change it basically and
if you don’t change it basically,

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you’ll are not changing and you’re not getting nothing. Everybody just smile. And
this is for the… Artist the same thing. If… if an artist like in this system…

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He works within this system.
If he doesn’t fight it,

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he’s a fucker. Like the same me.
I’m the fuck if I work on aisle.

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This is the same fucking thing.
Let’s face it.