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Confounding Father - Episode 2
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Arriving late to Philadelphia, Luther Martin makes a two day speech against the Virginia Plan; he has been vilified ever since. Who were the "Anti-federalists" and what were their objections? Textbooks and many historians celebrate the compromises that created our structure of government. But many compromises were ugly and unfortunate - the multiple protections for slavery are highlighted here.
Confounding Father is available for individual streaming via OVID.tv.
. . . has made me, a professional historian, want to rush to the nearest library, read the historians’ books in full, and contemplate anew how a country originally organized around opposition to tyranny and coercion rather quickly made the watershed move at the Constitutional Convention to lay the groundwork for a country now characterized by authoritarianism and disregard for democracy. - Rev. Ellin Jimmerson, PhD
Citation
Main credits
Hall, Richard R. (film director)
Hall, Richard R. (film producer)
Hall, Richard R. (videographer)
Hall, Richard R. (editor of moving image work)
Browne-Marshall, Gloria J. (interviewee)
Distributor subjects
No distributor subjects provided.Keywords
WEBVTT
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♪♪Here\'s a tale you ought to know about
the Constitution, and a man who thought it♪
00:00:19.759 --> 00:00:26.289
♪did reverse the Revolution. Luther Martin
lost the fight, forgotten is his glory.♪
00:00:26.289 --> 00:00:32.900
♪Drink some coffee sit up straight
we\'re going to tell his story!♪♪
00:00:32.900 --> 00:00:39.260
The rationalization for slavery
continuing and for the compromise
00:00:39.260 --> 00:00:44.199
to allow slavery to continue is based on
what we\'re still dealing with today;
00:00:44.199 --> 00:00:50.420
which is a nation of disparate
backgrounds and religions and beliefs
00:00:50.420 --> 00:00:57.890
brought together in a way that coalesces
around whiteness. And one way for
00:00:57.890 --> 00:01:04.129
whiteness to actually have a reality to
it is to have blackness, is to have
00:01:04.129 --> 00:01:09.950
people of color, is to have the other. And
so the xenophobia has been a part of the
00:01:09.950 --> 00:01:14.180
beginning of this nation. In fact it was
slaves were referred to as \"Other
00:01:14.180 --> 00:01:18.500
Persons\" in the document. The framers
sneered Martin, \"anxiously sought to avoid
00:01:18.500 --> 00:01:22.010
the admission of expressions which might
be odious in the ears of Americans
00:01:22.010 --> 00:01:25.700
although they were willing to admit into
their system those things which the
00:01:25.700 --> 00:01:27.740
expressions signified.\"
00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:41.080
♪♪ Free.....Free....♪♪
00:01:52.880 --> 00:01:57.360
He didn\'t speak until the convention had
already considered and rejected the New
00:01:57.369 --> 00:02:05.979
Jersey Plan..and on June 19th, before they
dealt with representation, the convention
00:02:05.979 --> 00:02:11.620
decides to report the Virginia Plan.
Now, at this point, Martin starts to argue
00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:18.760
and basically argues for a return to the
New Jersey Plan at most, by saying first
00:02:18.760 --> 00:02:23.110
of all that the states when they
declared their independence from Great
00:02:23.110 --> 00:02:30.040
Britain they declared their independence
severally. These states individually then
00:02:30.040 --> 00:02:36.730
came together to form this Confederation,
and the rules of the Confederation have
00:02:36.730 --> 00:02:41.709
to be followed. His arguments were not
unreasonable. Unfortunately, he did not
00:02:41.709 --> 00:02:47.170
present them in the most edifying and
persuasive way. Let\'s take a look at his
00:02:47.170 --> 00:02:51.280
press clippings. William Pierce, who was a
Georgia delegate to the convention who
00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.610
said almost nothing in the convention
but he was taking notes the whole time -
00:02:54.610 --> 00:02:58.299
just as James Madison was taking notes.
Actually Pierce said that Madison
00:02:58.299 --> 00:03:02.560
dressed in black during the entire
convention - in what I am reasonably sure
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:08.170
was not an homage to Johnny Cash, but
anyway - Pierce said of Martin quote
00:03:08.170 --> 00:03:12.310
\"This gentleman possesses a good deal of
information but he has a very bad
00:03:12.310 --> 00:03:16.299
delivery and it\'s so extremely prolix
that he never speaks about tiring the
00:03:16.299 --> 00:03:20.033
patience of all who hear him.\" end quote.
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He is \"uncouth\" which I suspect means he uses
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lots of language that you don\'t use in
polite company. One of his friends says
00:03:28.570 --> 00:03:36.519
his clothing as a mixture of fine
wool and run-down clothing that\'s never
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seen a brush - because you don\'t go to the
cleaners you brush your wool suit - he
00:03:40.540 --> 00:03:46.720
doesn\'t. Martin was you know he had a
reputation for drunk drinking heavily.
00:03:46.720 --> 00:03:50.320
Martin is often glimpsed through a shot
glass darkly.
00:03:50.320 --> 00:03:53.730
He is a drunk.
00:03:53.730 --> 00:03:59.069
His villainy has extended in the
popular literature even through to
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this day. There\'s very popular children\'s
book called \"Shhh, We\'re Writing the Constitution\" by
00:04:04.440 --> 00:04:10.260
Jean Fritz. Her Martin quote is \"...a tall
mussed-up looking man who loved the sound
00:04:10.260 --> 00:04:14.220
of his own voice so much that once he
started talking he couldn\'t bear to stop.\"
00:04:14.220 --> 00:04:20.810
If you read about Luther Martin he is
irascible, he is argumentative, he is
00:04:20.810 --> 00:04:23.820
sarcastic, he is nasty.
00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:30.120
Never left anything
unsaid. Although, he\'s acknowledged to
00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:35.850
be learned; so he\'s not a fool.
William Appleman Williams the great
00:04:35.850 --> 00:04:40.620
historian from Atlantic, Iowa once said
\"Let us think about the people who lost.\"
00:04:40.620 --> 00:04:45.240
You know, we have a really bad habit in
this country of flushing the people who
00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.970
lost down the memory hole and Martin was
one of the original people who lost.
00:04:49.970 --> 00:04:55.860
Well Madison is pretty clear that he\'s
he\'s put off by the length of his
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harangues. James Madison kept the most
complete set of notes on the convention.
00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:06.060
They were published four years after his
death, and they were an absolute
00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:12.990
stenographic marvel. And the one time
when he simply gives up is in a two-day
00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:18.570
speech by Luther Martin in which Madison
he just writes in his notes something to
00:05:18.570 --> 00:05:22.919
the effect of and he went on and on
etcetera as he always does for the next
00:05:22.919 --> 00:05:28.229
day. There\'s no doubt that he does not
like Martin or the anti-federalist
00:05:28.229 --> 00:05:33.030
position which he considers to be the
thing that\'s caused the problems that
00:05:33.030 --> 00:05:39.090
that the Constitution is designed to to
resolve. But what did he say? He advocates
00:05:39.090 --> 00:05:45.510
modest revisions to the Articles. Luther
Martin thought the whole of the idea of
00:05:45.510 --> 00:05:49.490
radically changing the government was a
mistake, that
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that the Confederation was what the
convention was supposed to be working on,
00:05:53.690 --> 00:05:59.930
that it had violated its its its orders,
and essentially there were no amendments
00:05:59.930 --> 00:06:04.580
that could fix what he thought was
broken. What was broken was that what the
00:06:04.580 --> 00:06:08.630
convention proposed was a substantive
government based on the authority of the
00:06:08.630 --> 00:06:13.440
people. Martin thought it should be a
government of states.
00:06:13.640 --> 00:06:15.380
And that means
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state equality and if there\'s going to
be a change it has to be unanimous
00:06:18.710 --> 00:06:23.690
consent. Moreover he said, the people have
nothing to do with this - they gave their
00:06:23.690 --> 00:06:28.420
power to the legislature. This would be
pure federalism: it\'s the state
00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:33.440
legislatures that have the authority
directly from the people, and the
00:06:33.440 --> 00:06:38.660
Constitution they\'re working from
required unanimous consent. That was
00:06:38.660 --> 00:06:43.460
Luther Martin\'s position. I object to Mr.
Randolph\'s plan, I say the Confederation
00:06:43.460 --> 00:06:47.870
does not have the power to discuss and
propose it. New York would never have concurred
00:06:47.870 --> 00:06:51.710
in sending deputies to the convention
if she had supposed it were to discuss a
00:06:51.710 --> 00:06:56.450
national government! He had a fear of
empire, but I think what Empire
00:06:56.450 --> 00:07:01.460
represented to him were the negatives of
a monarchy and the spread of a monarchy.
00:07:01.460 --> 00:07:06.620
Because how do you control a nation? You
have to control it through a fist, a firm
00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:09.830
hand, and that\'s been done as we\'ve seen
in the Soviet Union and in other places,
00:07:09.830 --> 00:07:13.550
where you have these different
backgrounds and religions and cultures
00:07:13.550 --> 00:07:19.430
all one geographical space that you
want to claim as your nation and usually
00:07:19.430 --> 00:07:21.770
it is through crackdown on individual
rights.
00:07:21.770 --> 00:07:28.040
Martin is consistently an advocate of
Federal on this traditional
00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:34.460
understanding of state equality. He\'s in
the minority in the convention on this,
00:07:34.460 --> 00:07:40.160
and his own state ratified 63 to 11 - it
was a seventh state to ratify - he\'s in
00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:44.810
the minority in Maryland, and I would say
apropos you know the theme of Luther
00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:49.910
Martin and the anti-federalists where he
is on the spectrum of anti-federalist
00:07:49.910 --> 00:07:54.470
thought: he\'s to the extreme. He thought
that the federal convention should have done
00:07:54.470 --> 00:08:00.140
what it was authorized to do, and that is
to propose amendments to the Articles of
00:08:00.140 --> 00:08:03.139
Confederation. He said it would be much
smarter to
00:08:03.139 --> 00:08:09.259
fix what was broken, and to give new
powers sparingly, and only to the extent
00:08:09.259 --> 00:08:15.080
that they were necessary, because it was
always easier to give power than to take
00:08:15.080 --> 00:08:17.469
it back.
00:08:21.430 --> 00:08:28.340
Martin also defends small Republics. A
national Empire of the sort he saw in
00:08:28.340 --> 00:08:32.469
the Virginia Plan would fail and
deservedly so. On the second day of
00:08:32.469 --> 00:08:39.560
Martin\'s a two-day discourse he also
delivers a lovely line: \"Happiness is
00:08:39.560 --> 00:08:44.019
preferable to the splendors of a
national government.\" Happiness.
00:08:44.019 --> 00:08:51.949
Martin is speaking on behalf of American
modesty; of small and local things rather
00:08:51.949 --> 00:08:56.390
than what the the neoconservatives and
imperialists of our day call \"national
00:08:56.400 --> 00:08:57.920
greatness.\"
00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:07.920
♪♪Luther Martin went to town, expecting a revision, imagine his surprise when they♪
00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:10.880
♪destroyed the current system.♪
00:09:10.880 --> 00:09:17.920
♪National systems are too big, we don\'t want an empire, we were sent here to revise his speech it was on fire!♪
00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:38.320
♪Luther Martin went to town, Luther Martin tried hard, anti-federalists could not stop creation of an empire!♪♪
00:10:17.280 --> 00:10:23.360
They were for a conception of federalism
that granted only those powers to the
00:10:23.430 --> 00:10:29.730
general government which were deemed
absolutely necessary, mainly for security.
00:10:29.730 --> 00:10:35.880
So they were small government men. It\'s
really hard to summarize the arguments
00:10:35.880 --> 00:10:40.949
and Anti-federalists because they are
such a diverse lot. I don\'t use the word
00:10:40.949 --> 00:10:45.600
Anti-federalist unless it appears in a
quotation or unless the people so
00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:51.000
designated freely accepted the word. I
think that the people who are so
00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:56.899
categorized; that is as opponents of
the Constitution are often
00:10:56.899 --> 00:11:02.939
mischaracterized. I mean for Luther
Martin, yes it works, he did indeed oppose
00:11:02.939 --> 00:11:08.399
the Constitution - but most of those who
criticized the Constitution and were
00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:12.389
against ratifying it in the form that
the convention proposed only wanted
00:11:12.389 --> 00:11:15.959
amendments. The poor Anti-federalists
never had a shot at it. The Federalists
00:11:15.959 --> 00:11:20.490
quite shrewdly - they really should be
called Nationalists - they quite shrewdly
00:11:20.490 --> 00:11:27.899
take the term Federalist for themselves.
Now they who advocate the system pretend
00:11:27.899 --> 00:11:33.750
to call themselves Federalists! In
convention the distinction was quite the
00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:39.870
reverse. Those who opposed the system were there considered and styled
00:11:39.870 --> 00:11:46.649
the federal party those who advocated it the anti-federal. That\'s part of the problem
00:11:46.649 --> 00:11:52.110
these people come down to us with the
prefix anti attached to their name so we
00:11:52.110 --> 00:11:56.339
think, \"well okay they were there just
against something.\" The arguments that
00:11:56.339 --> 00:12:01.709
were made by the Anti-federalists in 1787
were basically we\'re trusting you that
00:12:01.709 --> 00:12:04.740
we\'ll have protections against a federal
government that has
00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:08.430
so much power and we\'re giving this
power away and you\'re telling us that
00:12:08.430 --> 00:12:12.570
we\'re gonna get it back in some form. And
one of the arguments they made it\'s like
00:12:12.570 --> 00:12:17.130
once we give this power away we\'re not
getting it back and in the end the
00:12:17.130 --> 00:12:22.980
federal government can usurp the power
of the state. I think they are as the
00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:30.810
historian Cecilia Kenyon put it in the
1950s \"men of little faith.\" They are
00:12:30.810 --> 00:12:38.279
are narrow-minded state politicians. They
are afraid of everything, and they want
00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:43.920
to keep power in their own local little
hands. History has been very unkind
00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:48.540
to critics of the Constitution because
they are characterized as
00:12:48.540 --> 00:12:53.700
across-the-board opponents of the
Constitution and often the description
00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:58.470
of Federalists seems to be accepted by
historians: that is the Constitution
00:12:58.470 --> 00:13:03.480
self-styled friends or Federalists often
characterized their opponents as
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:08.910
self-serving individuals who were often
state office holders worried for their
00:13:08.910 --> 00:13:14.640
jobs or people who had something to gain
by the failure of the Constitution. This
00:13:14.640 --> 00:13:20.040
was needless to say ungenerous and is
also historically inaccurate. There were
00:13:20.040 --> 00:13:25.829
some Anti-federalists who were wealthy
elites themselves and they just had a
00:13:25.829 --> 00:13:32.370
few issues with with Constitution such
as the lack of a Bill of Rights, but
00:13:32.370 --> 00:13:38.730
there were also way at the other end of
the spectrum other Anti-federalists who
00:13:38.730 --> 00:13:46.140
opposed a constitution for making an
undemocratic country even less
00:13:46.140 --> 00:13:49.920
democratic. The anti-federalists are
certainly Founding Fathers.
00:13:49.920 --> 00:13:53.940
Many of them are signers and the
Declaration of Independence. Many of them
00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:58.589
are involved in the revolution itself.
Samuel Chase, was a signer of the
00:13:58.589 --> 00:14:02.579
Declaration of Independence, he opposes
the Constitution then becomes a justice
00:14:02.579 --> 00:14:07.059
in the Supreme Court. James Monroe future president is an
00:14:07.059 --> 00:14:13.869
Anti-Federalist. So there are some people
who oppose the Constitution on Bill of
00:14:13.869 --> 00:14:18.729
Rights issues on slavery issues perhaps
on some structural issues that are worth
00:14:18.729 --> 00:14:23.949
thinking about. But the ones who rant on
and on about how the president is going
00:14:23.949 --> 00:14:29.589
to be the king or we\'re gonna have a
military dictatorship; I think those
00:14:29.589 --> 00:14:34.479
people are simply grasping at straws.
Luther Martin thought that the
00:14:34.479 --> 00:14:41.469
Constitution would - not immediately but
in time - essentially efface the
00:14:41.469 --> 00:14:45.669
importance of state governments and
local governments. Power - political power
00:14:45.669 --> 00:14:51.669
but also economic power - would be sort of
sucked into the federal city. And
00:14:51.669 --> 00:14:56.439
Martin was was very, was full of
predictions and most of those have
00:14:56.439 --> 00:15:01.599
turned out to be correct. That the
District of Columbia would turn out to
00:15:01.599 --> 00:15:07.689
be this isolated place behind \"the
beltway\" and that the government
00:15:07.689 --> 00:15:13.559
would soon usurp tremendous powers that
nobody anticipated. That the National
00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:18.560
Army would grow up and the militia would
it would be nationalized so easily.
00:15:39.760 --> 00:15:50.240
♪♪ We don\'t have, no pay, have no payday here.♪
00:15:50.800 --> 00:16:00.320
♪We don\'t have, no pay, have no payday here.♪♪
00:16:16.640 --> 00:16:22.400
Basically, all the delegates wanted the
same thing: one nation with a strong
00:16:22.430 --> 00:16:28.640
central government. Now they realized that
in order to create this they would have
00:16:28.640 --> 00:16:33.840
to make concessions and compromises on
the controversial issues.
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.040
Not everybody is happy with all the compromises they have made.
00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:41.120
Slavery is certainly one of those issues that they are going to debate here,
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.200
and it will divide them just as it divides the rest of the country for decades to come.
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:51.440
Some of these men are slave owners, others that profit by the trade. Although some are also opposed to it,
00:16:51.760 --> 00:16:56.400
ultimately they leave the decision about
slavery for later generations.
00:16:56.400 --> 00:16:57.740
On the very first day of
00:16:57.740 --> 00:17:02.390
substantive debate, when Edmund Randolph
the governor of Virginia introduces
00:17:02.390 --> 00:17:06.530
what\'s known as the Virginia Plan - the
Virginia Plan says representation should
00:17:06.530 --> 00:17:11.780
be based on population - and immediately,
somebody suggests that they put the word
00:17:11.780 --> 00:17:18.410
\"free\" in front of \"population\" and that
leads to a debate. And they decide not to
00:17:18.410 --> 00:17:23.060
debate that any further that day. They
debate how you count slaves for
00:17:23.060 --> 00:17:29.450
representation over and over and over
again. There are long debates over
00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:33.860
slavery, there are vitriolic debates,
there are nasty debates over slavery.
00:17:33.860 --> 00:17:37.700
When the textbooks talk about the
Constitutional Convention they do tend
00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:43.850
to focus on all of the disagreements and
then the compromises that resolve those
00:17:43.850 --> 00:17:50.929
disagreements and they tend to celebrate
those compromises. When a broad table is
00:17:50.929 --> 00:17:54.310
to be and the edges of the planks do not fit
00:17:54.310 --> 00:18:05.650
the artist takes a little from both and
makes a good joint. Here both sides must
00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:12.040
part with some of their demands in order
that they may join.
00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.540
Part of me says well that\'s a good idea
let\'s teach kids to get along and not be
00:18:15.550 --> 00:18:18.640
fighting on the playground and all that.
But you know some of those compromises
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.270
are really ugly compromises - like the
compromise that continued the slave
00:18:22.270 --> 00:18:28.690
trade for another 20 years and also
allowed the southerners to go up into
00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:32.230
the north and force the local
authorities to help them recover their
00:18:32.230 --> 00:18:37.210
slaves when they ran away - that\'s a compromise in the less pleasant sense of
00:18:37.210 --> 00:18:40.930
the word compromise. What I find
fascinating about the Fugitive Slave
00:18:40.930 --> 00:18:46.990
Clause in the US Constitution is that
most people don\'t know that there is a
00:18:46.990 --> 00:18:52.900
Fugitive Slave Clause in the US
Constitution. And that the same clause
00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:58.390
that speaks to the extradition of
suspects from one state into another
00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:03.700
state in one paragraph - the next
paragraph speaks to the extradition of
00:19:03.700 --> 00:19:08.950
human beings who have escaped slavery
from one state to another state - so the
00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:15.730
compromise within the US Constitution in
1787 was that the slaveholders who were
00:19:15.730 --> 00:19:20.410
in the room did not want to see their
property diminished. There would be the
00:19:20.410 --> 00:19:24.580
ending of the slave trade in 1808 but
slavery itself would continue as a
00:19:24.580 --> 00:19:30.630
business because they had invested so
much in it. What the framers could do and
00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:40.660
did do, was to limit slave importation to
20 years - and to use circumlocution so
00:19:40.660 --> 00:19:45.380
that the Constitution does not include
the word \"slave\" or \"slavery.\"
00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:50.640
What they couldn\'t do - and they\'ve been criticized for this and I think unfairly -
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:55.200
is to have eliminated slavery - then there\'s no Union - no Union?
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.740
Well you know what does that do? That doesn\'t help.
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:01.780
And there\'s this this big debate at the convention about what to do with the
00:20:01.780 --> 00:20:05.220
slave trade, and the South Carolinians essentially say if
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:10.410
you don\'t give us a protection we\'re not
going to be able to support the
00:20:10.410 --> 00:20:17.370
Constitution. So after a three-day debate
over the slave trade - four southern
00:20:17.370 --> 00:20:22.230
states including Maryland, team up with
first Connecticut, and then later
00:20:22.230 --> 00:20:29.190
Massachusetts and New Hampshire - there
are three successive votes - to allow the
00:20:29.190 --> 00:20:34.140
slave trade to continue for at least
twenty years until 1808. Now why do the
00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:37.470
New England states go along with it not
because they\'re involved in a slave
00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:41.430
trade as some people think us in fact
it\'s illegal under state law in all of
00:20:41.430 --> 00:20:46.350
those states to be involved in the slave
trade it\'s because they want the
00:20:46.350 --> 00:20:51.000
convention to also allow Congress to
regulate commerce by a simple majority.
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:58.980
And so the the compromise is that the
Commerce Clause will pass and the Slave
00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:05.580
Trade Clause will pass. And the nation
they envisioned required money, required
00:21:05.580 --> 00:21:13.560
labor, and required what that labor
created, and so they decided to go
00:21:13.560 --> 00:21:20.810
against what they knew at the time was
the better judgment of true freedmen and
00:21:20.810 --> 00:21:26.010
true believers in God. And they decided
that they would put their greed before
00:21:26.010 --> 00:21:31.800
all else - this is a commerce equation
that works. We know if we work people for
00:21:31.800 --> 00:21:37.560
free, on land we obtain for free, we make
a profit free and clear.
00:21:37.560 --> 00:21:44.940
It was not inevitable. To be sure the
Constitution would not have abolished
00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:51.060
slavery, but I believe that the multiple
protections for slavery were not
00:21:51.060 --> 00:21:56.280
foreordained. Madison was so obsessed with winning proportional representation in
00:21:56.280 --> 00:22:00.540
both branches in Congress that he was
willing to sacrifice the future of
00:22:00.540 --> 00:22:06.720
nearly 3/4 of a million people held as
property - about 20% of the population of
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.870
the United States. In the debate
over how to choose the President James
00:22:09.870 --> 00:22:14.190
Madison says, the fittest thing - that is
the most appropriate thing - would be for
00:22:14.190 --> 00:22:17.850
the people to elect the President and
then he says but if that happens \"our
00:22:17.850 --> 00:22:21.900
Negroes won\'t count.\" Of course what he
means by our Negroes won\'t count is the
00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:26.429
slaves aren\'t going to vote. Virginia is
the largest state in the country by
00:22:26.429 --> 00:22:31.049
population but 40 percent of the
population are slaves, and so if you
00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:36.600
can\'t fold the slaves into the election
of the president, Virginia won\'t get to
00:22:36.600 --> 00:22:41.610
elect its presidents. So you get the
Electoral College, which is made up by
00:22:41.610 --> 00:22:45.870
giving electors based on the number of
Representatives in Congress you have; and
00:22:45.870 --> 00:22:49.980
the number of Representatives in Congress is based on the Three-Fifths Clause. And so
00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:55.020
when you get to say the crucial
presidential election of 1800: Jefferson
00:22:55.020 --> 00:22:59.549
is elected president because of the
electors created by the Three-Fifths
00:22:59.549 --> 00:23:04.460
Clause. If there had been no slaves
counted for purposes of representation,
00:23:04.460 --> 00:23:10.289
Jefferson would not have been elected
president in 1800. And it\'s clear, it\'s
00:23:10.289 --> 00:23:14.880
open, Madison says it, people say it all
the time.
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:18.210
Had he accepted state
00:23:18.210 --> 00:23:23.909
representation in the Senate at the
outset in early June, the political
00:23:23.909 --> 00:23:27.799
dynamic which produced the Three-Fifths
Clause might never have occurred - and
00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:32.340
without the Three-Fifths Clause and the
rise of the southern slave power in
00:23:32.340 --> 00:23:38.399
national politics - our entire national
history would be different. And the
00:23:38.399 --> 00:23:44.730
rationalization for slavery
continuing - and for the compromise
00:23:44.730 --> 00:23:49.860
to allow slavery to continue - is based on
what we\'re still dealing with today:
00:23:49.860 --> 00:23:55.289
which is a nation of disparate
backgrounds and and religions and
00:23:55.289 --> 00:24:00.630
beliefs brought together in a way that
coalesces around
00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:08.070
\"whiteness.\" And one way for whiteness to
actually have a reality to it is to have
00:24:08.070 --> 00:24:13.590
\"blackness\" - is to have people of color, is
to have the \"other.\" And so the xenophobia
00:24:13.590 --> 00:24:19.049
has been a part of the beginning of this
nation. In fact it was said slaves were
00:24:19.049 --> 00:24:23.169
referred to as \"other persons\" in the document. \"The framers..\" sneered Martin \"anxiously...
00:24:23.169 --> 00:24:26.620
sought to avoid the admission of
expressions which might be odious in the
00:24:26.620 --> 00:24:30.460
ears of Americans, although they were
willing to admit into their system those
00:24:30.460 --> 00:24:35.379
things which the expressions signified.\" I
think many of these people were living
00:24:35.379 --> 00:24:40.529
with the illusion that slavery was on
its last legs - it\'s gonna die naturally.
00:24:40.529 --> 00:24:45.490
Now they couldn\'t been more wrong; there\'s no doubt of that. Slavery was actually
00:24:45.490 --> 00:24:49.629
growing in numbers despite the
manumissions despite the abolition of
00:24:49.629 --> 00:24:53.129
slavery in the north -
which where it was not insignificant -
00:24:53.129 --> 00:24:58.059
slavery there are more slaves at the end
of the Revolutionary Era by 1790 than
00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:03.159
there were before the Revolution before
1760. So slavery is growing, but they
00:25:03.159 --> 00:25:08.889
don\'t know that they don\'t realize how
fast it\'s grown. The main business of
00:25:08.889 --> 00:25:14.799
the upper South was not
growing tobacco anymore; it\'s the it\'s
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.570
the growing of slaves - they\'re selling
slaves to the Mississippi and Alabama. By
00:25:19.570 --> 00:25:24.340
1820 that is what the upper South is
doing. Well Martin brought the matter up
00:25:24.340 --> 00:25:29.379
in in mid-August. Martin warned, the
continuance of slavery quote \"ought to be
00:25:29.379 --> 00:25:33.549
considered as justly exposing us to the
displeasure and vengeance of him who was
00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:38.440
we equally Lord of all and who views
with equal I the poor African slave in
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:43.240
his American master.\" He called slavery
\"inconsistent with the principles of the
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:48.220
Revolution and dishonourable to the
American character.\" Now it is true that
00:25:48.220 --> 00:25:52.929
Martin owned six slaves at the time, but
you know who among us does not traffic
00:25:52.929 --> 00:25:58.179
in petty hypocrisies? He was immediately
shouted down by people like James
00:25:58.179 --> 00:26:03.129
Madison and Roger Sherman you know all
the all the deities you know the folks
00:26:03.129 --> 00:26:08.350
who people the history books today as as
the heroes. What I like about this is
00:26:08.350 --> 00:26:16.090
that it prompts a statement from
Rutledge - I think it\'s John Rutledge of
00:26:16.090 --> 00:26:22.299
of South Carolina - who says in reply
\"religion and humanity had nothing to do
00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:28.090
with this question interest alone as the
governing principle with nations.\" Martin
00:26:28.090 --> 00:26:34.120
saying what he did, prompts Rutledge to say what he said and..Rutledge,
00:26:34.120 --> 00:26:38.830
he could have said, \"well blacks aren\'t
they don\'t have rights when we say all
00:26:38.830 --> 00:26:43.360
men are created equal of course we don\'t
mean blacks.\" No. He said \"religion and
00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:47.169
humanity have nothing to do with this.\" He
said bracket the Declaration of
00:26:47.169 --> 00:26:52.179
Independence we\'re talking government. By
implication he understands all men are
00:26:52.179 --> 00:26:57.100
created equal to be you know what I
think clearly was understood.
00:26:57.100 --> 00:27:01.929
These debates are very open. Slavery is
everywhere. On the very last day of the
00:27:01.929 --> 00:27:07.659
convention, Elbridge Gerry of
Massachusetts says I will not sign this
00:27:07.659 --> 00:27:13.929
constitution because of the Three-Fifths
Clause, and George Mason of Virginia who
00:27:13.929 --> 00:27:19.510
owns a couple hundred slaves but who
opposes importing more from Africa,
00:27:19.510 --> 00:27:24.080
Mason says I will not sign this because of the clause allowing the African slave trade.
00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:27.370
In western Virginia where there\'s not a
lot of slavery, one of the
00:27:27.370 --> 00:27:34.480
anti-federalists attacks the slave trade
provision and he says, \"this is a
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:38.710
wonderful clause for an Algerian
Constitution.\" Of course this is the
00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:43.960
Barbary pirates who are enslaving
American sailors captured in the
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:48.820
southern Mediterranean. He says
\"it\'s a wonderful clause for an Algerian
00:27:48.820 --> 00:27:54.880
Constitution but not so well suited for
our latitude.\" I think that there were
00:27:54.880 --> 00:28:01.750
those within that room in 1787 who knew
that slavery was wrong. When people say
00:28:01.750 --> 00:28:06.100
that that\'s what everyone was doing;
that\'s not the case. There were always
00:28:06.100 --> 00:28:12.210
people fighting against slavery. Those
people who were slave masters in the
00:28:12.210 --> 00:28:16.659
1787 meeting had an economic
rationalization, a religious
00:28:16.659 --> 00:28:20.710
rationalization, they had a social
rationalization, these people should not
00:28:20.710 --> 00:28:26.190
be in our same sight in society - as they
were Africans serving them food and
00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:31.510
cleaning their houses and nursing their
babies and some of them sleeping with
00:28:31.510 --> 00:28:35.559
them on the side - you know all of this
was taking place. So the rationalization
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:40.870
that was needed in order to to create a
country has been a rationalization that
00:28:40.870 --> 00:28:44.700
has been
used, going into the Civil War - coming
00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:49.590
out of the Civil War. We have to pull a
nation together. How do we do that? We
00:28:49.590 --> 00:28:54.180
pull the North and South together by
removing the troops and saying that the
00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:58.380
\"other\" - those Native Americans and those
Africans - we\'re coming together as a
00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:03.060
nation of whites and they\'re on the
outside the \"other.\" We see it happen time
00:29:03.060 --> 00:29:05.500
and time again in this nation.
00:29:18.900 --> 00:29:22.660
As long as we keep the foundation of our business system
00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:26.700
strong we shall be able to
maintain and improve the way of life our
00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:30.360
forefathers conceived and established.
00:29:36.520 --> 00:29:44.660
♪♪ Confounding Fathers they fought against,
the Constitution...♪
00:29:45.080 --> 00:29:50.800
♪We just got started now we need some time, to let our freedom ring.♪
00:30:08.800 --> 00:30:14.240
♪Washington and Jefferson, they owned slaves...♪
00:30:15.760 --> 00:30:21.440
♪Confederate soldiers, they were very brave...♪
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:30.880
♪The lynch mob is coming you better, run and hide.♪
00:30:31.840 --> 00:30:37.920
♪The skeletons in the closet are still alive (repeat)♪
00:30:54.880 --> 00:31:12.800
♪The founding slaves...fought in a war...to make the white, man, free.♪♪
00:31:14.320 --> 00:31:21.120
Next time on Confounding Father.
00:31:21.120 --> 00:31:23.090
That House of Representatives has 65
00:31:23.090 --> 00:31:27.830
representatives in it - the first house -
now, that\'s smaller than most of the
00:31:27.830 --> 00:31:34.400
state legislatures. I mean that\'s
incredible we have Massachusetts had 350
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:39.020
people. Most of them numbered in the you
know 200 or more, and all of a sudden you
00:31:39.020 --> 00:31:44.390
can have this federal legislature is
going to be 65? I mean, that really
00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:48.590
bothered a lots of people with good
reason. It\'s still a problem because we
00:31:48.590 --> 00:31:52.790
still have a very small legislature.
One of the people advocating those
00:31:52.790 --> 00:31:56.780
smaller districts is if you have big
districts it\'s like an \"invisible fence.\"
00:31:56.780 --> 00:32:01.370
And the result of that is that ordinary
people when you have these huge
00:32:01.370 --> 00:32:07.130
congressional districts they feel
disempowered but there\'s there\'s no
00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:12.230
fence to try to bash down because it\'s
an invisible fence. A large congressional
00:32:12.230 --> 00:32:18.560
district is an invisible fence that that
stymies you but you can\'t see it to tear
00:32:18.560 --> 00:32:23.090
it down. And I think you could take that
analogy through to the whole federal
00:32:23.090 --> 00:32:27.770
government and that it was a way of
taking power away from ordinary farmers
00:32:27.770 --> 00:32:38.539
there wasn\'t explicit.
Distributor: Nerds Make Media
Length: 33 minutes
Date: 2020
Genre: Expository
Language: English
Closed Captioning: Available
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