WEBVTT

00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.999
You’ve described Wiki Leaks as
untraceable and unsensible.

00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:19.999
What do you mean by that? Well, nothing

00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:24.999
in this world is guaranteed for sure.
But within that

00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:29.999
umm… we have put together an infrastructure
using technical and legal techniques

00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.999
umm… to really make it hard to trace
people and make it hard to take down

00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:39.999
our material once it’s published.
And today uh…

00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.999
we’ve had 100% success rate, so
that basic idea and intention

00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:49.999
is comprised of a number of
specific ways of doing things.

00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.999
So for untraceability, this means
people send us material in the post in

00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:59.999
a particular way engaging
particular procedures

00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:04.999
which makes it effectively impossible to trace,
or it means they submit material to us online

00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:09.999
and bounce the information

00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:14.999
through dozens of computers around the world.
Each computer encrypting its transmissions

00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.999
before it connects to another computer.
So it in this way discarding

00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:24.999
identities as information flows
around the world. As it flows

00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:29.999
through different countries we
make sure it flows through Sweden

00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.999
and Belgium, and these two countries
have specific source protection

00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:39.999
was in Sweden as part of the Swedish
Constitution, The Press Freedom Act.

00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:44.999
And in Belgium a specific law dealing with the
communications protections between a source

00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:49.999
and a journalist using any means whatsoever
including outright transmissions.

00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:54.999
For publication, this means
housing our service umm…

00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:59.999
in many different jurisdictions
such that, any sort of interim

00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.999
attack on us, interim injunction is not going to take the information
down, entirely it may not get out here and may not get out there.

00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:09.999
Umm… But we can put up service

00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:14.999
and gain support and respond
legally fast enough,

00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:19.999
such that the information is not going to be removed from
the public, and that has been what has happened today.

00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:24.999
We’ve never lost a court case
in any jurisdiction umm…

00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:29.999
pointing to remember, but they have been
interim attempts to injunctors(ph),

00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.999
and while those interim attempts have gone
on we have managed to keep publishing.

00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:39.999
How many… how many documents
of real value have you

00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:44.999
been able to accept and publish?

00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:49.999
Well, it’s hard to know how many real value,
I mean, this is in the eyes of the polder.

00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:54.999
To us all information that is true

00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.999
has value eventually, maybe a very
small value to someone somewhere

00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:04.999
umm… but getting that information
into the historical record,

00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:09.999
patting out the historical record,
provides a sort of richness to

00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.999
every other bit of information,
in historic record.

00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:19.999
If you’re talking about things
which have clearly changed

00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:24.999
that comes from lections or clearly introduces some
lower form or clearly abort perpetrators to trial,

00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.999
and this is in the hundreds,

00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.999
some… somewhere in the hundreds umm… for the
clearly changing governments or elections

00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:39.999
or having ministers deposed,
this is maybe half a dozen

00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:44.999
to ten something like that.
That’s the power of information,

00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.999
that’s an all truism, isn’t it?
And this is such a modern,

00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:54.999
ultra modern form of getting it out.

00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:59.999
It must frighten a lot of establishments

00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:04.999
and authority and especially governments,
what governments have been successful

00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:09.999
in blocking it, in
blocking Wiki Leaks. Yeah.

00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:14.999
The governments that have clearly uh…
tried to interfere with readers ability

00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.999
to look at what we publish,
and leakers ability

00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:24.999
to give us stuff uh… trainer
is the worst offender,

00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:29.999
trainer has the most aggressive
sophisticated interception technology

00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:34.999
that places itself in between every reader inside
China and every information source outside China.

00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:39.999
So we’ve been fighting a running battle

00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.999
to make sure information can’t get through, so there’s
all sorts of ways that Chinese readers can read outside.

00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:49.999
But the… the first thing that they tried doesn’t work.
The first thing you would imagine doing just go to

00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:54.999
WikiLeaks.org that doesn’t work,

00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:59.999
but variations on that do work.
Umm… Iran has blocked

00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:04.999
us as well for a period, have
we are now unblocked in Iran.

00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:09.999
The Australian government

00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:14.999
has added us to their list of secret

00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.999
internet sites that are to be blocked.
Once a national sort of filtering system

00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.999
is put into place, that national filtering
system has not yet been put into place,

00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.999
but if it is, we’ll be on list.
That’s the only western government,

00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.999
is it? There’s also Germany. Uh… Has
done a similar thing to Australia,

00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.999
you know, in a similar position where they’re
trying to get up this national censorship system,

00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.999
it looks like it’s not going to pass constitutional
review, it looks like it won’t get up.

00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:49.999
But something important to understand is what
happens in the West is privatized censorship.

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:54.999
So like it most other
institutions in the West

00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:59.999
censorship has been privatized,
and that means that

00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:04.999
big corporations go through the
court system to get injunctions

00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.999
and use the coercive power of the state by the ability
to deploy armed police to force a court order.

00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.999
Umm… They use the court apparatus to do
that. Umm… Then I mean there’s other…

00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:19.999
other ways of censorship because,
you know, (inaudible) and so on.

00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.999
But to give a specific example of private
bank it deals with wealthy private clients,

00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:29.999
minimum account balance one million bucks,

00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:34.999
hides their assets around the world to
make sure creditors, ex-wives, police,

00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.999
(inaudible) can’t get them. Umm… We revealed
their trust (inaudible) in the Cayman Islands,

00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:44.999
the beneficiaries who set up the trust,
how much money was in it and so on.

00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:49.999
And they attacked us in United States. In the
courts? In the courts, so the Swiss came

00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:54.999
in our operation using US Federal law

00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:59.999
to try and attack us. Umm… They attacked

00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:04.999
the main registration URL that
people familiar with WikiLeaks.org,

00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:09.999
because one of the companies involved in
registering, that was based in California.

00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.999
And through that interim injunction
they did take that down for ten days.

00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.999
Now, of course we’re still publishing and all
the other URLs still publishing successfully

00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:24.999
out of Sweden, but that the thing that people are
most familiar with uh… was no longer available.

00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.999
Umm… And we then responded uh…

00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.999
with a coalition of 20 lawyers and managed to
turn that around. So quite an interesting result,

00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:39.999
it’s not that the US justice
system brings justice,

00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.999
it’s not that the US justice
system is always unjust.

00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:49.999
But you have to bring justice
to the US justice system.

00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:54.999
And if you have a big enough coalition
with enough money you can force a good…

00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.999
good verdict out of it, but the initial verdict by
the same judge was that we were to be shut down.

00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:04.999
It’s interesting you
mentioned justice there,

00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.999
because I was going to ask you umm…
where the idea of WikiLeaks came from,

00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.999
but I mean having the sense I get from you

00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:19.999
is that you’ve been using
the technology… technology

00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.999
to mine this information,
especially within authority for…

00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:29.999
for quite a long time. But
there’s… there’s really something

00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:34.999
there’s another element to it there
is an element of justice seeking

00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.999
about WikiLeaks, it seems to
me almost a moral element.

00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:44.999
I won’t… I won’t go as far as saying
it was a crusade but there is…

00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:49.999
there is a passion about it that
it’s not just simply transparency

00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.999
uh… there’s something else. No, the goal
is justice, the method is transparency.

00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:59.999
It’s important not to confuse
the goal in the method. Mm-hmm.

00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:04.999
So what I observed by looking
at how the press worked

00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.999
and how successful
activists campaigns worked

00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:14.999
is a very cheap and effective way of getting
justice. It was finding information

00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:19.999
that people were spending effort
on concealing and revealing it.

00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.999
Why do people spend efforts on things, well,
because they believe it’s going to benefit them.

00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:29.999
So when organizations spend
effort to conceal something,

00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:34.999
they are making a statement, they’re
giving off an economic signal that

00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:39.999
if that information is revealed, it’s going to have an
effect. Mm-hmm. Otherwise why would you spend to work?

00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.999
So in many of those cases the
effect that it will have

00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:49.999
is a push to reform the
organization, that is concealing

00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:58.000
some kind of abuse or some plan for some future abuse. Umm… And so by selectively
going after that information as opposed to all the other sorts of information

00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.999
out there which there are vast
amount we are able to selectively

00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.999
bring about just change. The
arrival of WikiLeaks coincides

00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:14.999
with a whole…

00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:19.999
almost a sense of permanent
war, the term permanent war,

00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:24.999
perpetual war is constantly
used now in the United States.

00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:29.999
We have two wars running together
and others, and other secret wars.

00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:34.999
In the information

00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:39.999
that you have revealed on WikiLeaks
about these so-called endless wars,

00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:44.999
what has been the real

00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:49.999
high value material that has come
out, that has given people, ordinary

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.999
people if you like the kind of information
upon which they can then act.

00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:59.999
Looking at the enormous quantity

00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:04.999
in diversity of these military
or intelligence apparatus

00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:09.999
inside the documents umm… what I
see is a vast sprawling estate.

00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:14.999
The in… what we would traditionally call

00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:19.999
the military intelligence complex,
or military industrial complex,

00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.999
and that this sprawling
umm… industrial estate

00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:29.999
is growing becoming more and more…

00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.999
secretive becoming more and more
uncontrolled. This is not as

00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.999
sophisticated conspiracy controlled
at the top, this is a vast movement

00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.999
of self-interest, thousands
and thousands of players

00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:49.999
are all working together and
against each other to produce

00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.999
and end result which is Iraq
and Afghanistan and Colombia

00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:59.999
in keeping that going. So
what… what I see is, umm…

00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:04.999
you know, we often deal with tax havens

00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.999
and people hiding assets and transferring
money through offshore tax havens.

00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.999
So I see some really quite
remarkable similarities.

00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.999
Guantánamo is used for

00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.999
laundering people to an offshore haven

00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:29.999
which doesn’t follow the rule of law that
we would normally expect. Tax saving

00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:34.999
is used for hiding people’s assets, laundering
people’s assets through the jurisdiction

00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.999
which doesn’t follow the rule of law that
we would expect in our home countries.

00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:44.999
Similarly, Iraq and Afghanistan

00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:49.999
and Colombia, they used to wash money
out of the US… US tax base and back…

00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:54.999
Arms companies. …Arms companies, yeah.
And… And

00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:59.999
the generals and so on which if
you like nonprofit versions.

00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:04.999
Umm… So that you can’t just,
where you can’t always

00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.999
pull out two billion bucks from
the US tax base and just say,

00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.999
\"Hey, let’s give it to… give it to an arms company,\"
straight away with no expectation of doing any work.

00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:19.999
But if you say, \"This two billion dollars

00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.999
has got to go into Colombia,
but the Colombian government

00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:29.999
has to buy US arms and those arms

00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:34.999
has have to be of a particular
type, particular specification,

00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.999
that only one of these arms companies hands.\"
Then that’s just the way of wondering

00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:44.999
is back into United States. And what you’re
saying is that, money and money making

00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:49.999
is at the center of modern war

00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.999
and it’s almost self-perpetuating.
Yes, and it’s becoming worse.

00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:59.999
Umm… The number of private companies
that sprung up around Iraq,

00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.999
umm… the number of private companies now
supporting the National Security Agency,

00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.999
this has increased a 100
times in the past ten years,

00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:14.999
number of companies. So now
you have, you know, a school,

00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.999
a feeding school that is feeding off the US
tax base, and it is a lobby to make sure

00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.999
that those wars go on. And, you know,
you have two sorts of lobbies,

00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.999
there are offensive lobbies and defensive
lobbies, so an offensive lobby tries to

00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:34.999
get new money that it didn’t
have before, by lobbying the…

00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.999
the leaders of government. And
the defensive lobby makes sure

00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:44.999
that companies continue to receive the
money that they’ve been getting before.

00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:49.999
So now we’re in a position in
the United States where we have

00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:54.999
both enormous offensive lobbies and enormous defensive
lobbies, but defensive lobbies always fight harder.

00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:59.999
They fight to keep umm…

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.999
the expectation of the money
flow going and that apparatus

00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:09.999
has been built up in the past ten
years, and I think it’s umm…

00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:14.999
going to be extremely
difficult to dismantle.

00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:19.999
What was your reaction when you first saw,

00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.999
\"The Apache\" video that is now infamous?

00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:29.999
When I first saw this

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.999
we didn’t know that they were journalists
and I didn’t know who they were,

00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.999
I didn’t know the circumstances, we knew
this was a… a tape of a helicopter attack

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:44.999
and otherwise nothing. Umm… So I
could immediately see that this was,

00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:49.999
you know, a visceral
attack on people walking

00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:54.999
in a street, in a relaxed manner. Umm…

00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:59.999
But I didn’t know were… were they
armed, were they really the bad guys,

00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.999
they seemed incredibly relaxed, it
seemed like this was an attack that

00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.999
was very provocative.

00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:14.999
So if these people were insurgents

00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.999
then they were insurgents on having a
break playing on the street, in a suburb.

00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:24.999
But as we dug deeper and deeper

00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.999
the situation became
more and more appalling.

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.999
So we found that clearly nearly all
of these people were not armed.

00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:39.999
Clearly there were two cameramen.
They are holding cameras not arms.

00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:44.999
These cameramen turned out to
be Reuters news reporters.

00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:49.999
Umm… Then looking at this, wounded
man crawling on the curb,

00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:54.999
umm… we could… spending more time in the
detail, it was clear that there was no arms

00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:59.999
being picked up that he was just being rescued
by a passer by. Could you hear the voices,

00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.999
could you hear the voices from the helicopter at this
point? Yeah, we could hear the voices from the helicopter

00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:09.999
and, you know, sort of
the grotesque language

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:14.999
that soldiers have. What
really struck me was not the…

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:19.999
was not this very dark grotesque humor.

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:24.999
I can accept that that people exercise
black humor, very black humor

00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:29.999
sometimes in war. Rather, it was the

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:34.999
another day at the office. Umm…
Routine… Feel to all the proceedings,

00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:39.999
how routine it was to umm…
kill these 18 to 26 people.

00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.999
And that the

00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.999
whole street covered with bodies,
their reaction to that was nice.

00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.999
Umm… This tape for me

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:59.999
and the other people involved made nice
a dirty word. So we just couldn’t see

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.999
something as being nice
anymore when the whole street

00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.999
covered with carnage is nice.

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.999
Nice, yeah. If the reaction…

00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:19.999
now let me ask you, what
did you make of the…

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.999
the reaction to it in the
media, the mainstream media,

00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:29.999
reaction to the release of this video.
We have been involved in

00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:34.999
an obviously many different stories that
have produced. Fallout in the United States

00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:39.999
and, you know, the countries.
That this one was of a degree

00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:44.999
and of a better specific issue
that we are able to sort of plot

00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:49.999
how all this unfolded and blew out
and what the back reaction was.

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.999
So initially on the TV networks umm…

00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.999
there was an attempt to
immediately downplay this.

00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.999
So for example, CNN, Wolf
Blitzer, I mean there any show,

00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:09.999
they didn’t… they took the first segment which
is not the most appalling one the first attack

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.999
and then blanked out all the
shooting and then said this was

00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.999
out of sympathy or difference to the families. But there’s
no blood here just… you can just see dust coming up.

00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.999
And then, immediately started apologizing

00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:29.999
for the military, umm… saying, \"Oh, well,
you know, it’s hard for our soldiers

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:34.999
and a reminder that, you know, war
is more difficult.\" No condemnation,

00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:39.999
not even any requests for an inquiry

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.999
which is the sort of neutral response. Well, we
don’t want to blame people before the facts are in

00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.999
although actually if you see the video you’ve got most
of them, but we want to know everything about this,

00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:54.999
we want this inquiry to be open, we want to forth
come before disclosure. We want to know why

00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.999
this video was withheld
from Reuters for so long.

00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.999
So all we want to know were the children (inaudible)
compensated. Did they leave all these things

00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.999
to be the natural reactions?
Did not take place

00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:14.999
in the broadcast networks. Then for CNN

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.999
and NBC there was, I think
a sort of internal revolt

00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.999
by journalists, who were
seeing other journalists

00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.999
mowed down in history to Baghdad.

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.999
So a pushback against the
editorial management decision

00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:39.999
to treat it so briefly and in
such a pious way. So the next day

00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.999
saw a sort of richer umm… discussion

00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.999
and then it flipped.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.999
Then enormous editorial space,

00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:59.999
both in a printed press and in TV press
opened up for military apologies.

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.999
And no space opened up for anyone
else including people with new facts,

00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:09.999
including the soldiers on
the ground who were there,

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.999
the only English speaking witnesses,
you know, and the US witnesses

00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:19.999
and the only soldiers speaking, those people
couldn’t get into the mainstream prison,

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.999
couldn’t get on to TV. Talk about
that one… the one soldier who…

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.999
his name was McCord, is that right? Yeah,
yeah. One of the soldiers on the ground

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.999
who was one of those you
see arriving at the van.

00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:39.999
Ethan McCord. Ethan McCord. Yeah, he
is a soldier about thirty years old,

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.999
was in the ground unit
that was being serviced

00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.999
if you like, by the Apaches
in the sky and they

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:54.999
marched in and arrived with
bodies were in the shooting up

00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:59.999
(inaudible). And Ethan
heard the child crying

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.999
in the van, (inaudible)
and pulled out the girl,

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:09.999
saw the boy and thought the boy was dead.

00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:14.999
Took the child away from the van and sort
of an intermediate location and then

00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.999
went to look for anyone else in a
van and just saw the boy was just

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.999
breathing band pulled him out.

00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.999
So he ended up being covered with the blood of his children. Umm…
And he was quite disturbed by this event. And he got in contact

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.999
with us immediately after the video was
published and he produced the statement,

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:39.999
a letter of apology to this family,

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.999
because he wasn’t involved directly
with killing, but indirectly,

00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.999
it was his unit that was being
serviced by this apache.

00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.999
And indirectly that he was… he was part
of the US Army in Iraq. But he says that,

00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.999
you know, that he complained to
his superiors about this event

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.999
and they just told him to stop being a
pussy and to suck it up. And he’s tried

00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.999
quite hard to draw
attention to what happened

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.999
in the mainstream to get the mainstream press interested in…
in it. Umm… Within two days of us revealing the material,

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.999
so why was still news worthy,
there can’t be any excuse umm…

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:24.999
in the US press too. Well, that the moment
had passed and therefore, okay, yes,

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.999
his story is interesting but the moment
has passed. Because at the very same time

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.999
that he was trying to get his
story across editorial space

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:39.999
was being given to military
apologists, who were just, you know,

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.999
war is hard and it’s difficult
that these this happen. They seem…

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.999
and they didn’t show the full context
and they were shooting that morning.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:58.000
Yeah. So on and so on. Yeah. And, you know,
soldiers, it’s difficult for soldiers like,

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.999
you know, to get whatever not new
facts, where as… where as this soldier

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.999
had new facts about what had happened then and
an incident that happened immediately after.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.999
It was interesting about
him, he also had an overview

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:19.999
and he described what had happened
that day has a common occurrence,

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.999
and he talked about if… if

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:29.999
there’s any kind of threat or perceived
threat to American soldiers,

00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.999
they would… they would
let everybody have it.

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.999
He said, \"Let… let all the mother fuckers
have it a three hundred sixty degrees.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.999
That’s right, if there was an IED.
(inaudible).

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.999
If he was instructed by his commanding officer, that
if there, if an IED goes off anywhere in the street,

00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.999
then three hundred sixty
degree rotational fire

00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:59.999
and just take out everyone, women,
children, everyone gets it. Uh…

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.999
I guess as is it to try and act as a
disincentive for the local population,

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.999
for supporting any IED placement.
And that’s what happened. Yes.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.999
I mean there’s… it’s not that he was told that
and it didn’t happen, but rather that happened

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.999
and he was instructed, so he and
some other soldiers in this unit,

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.999
he didn’t like that instruction apparently,
fired high when those orders came…

00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.999
when IED went off and they were instructed to
fire those orders. What… what do the leaks

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.999
uh… around this issue, tell you about

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:39.999
whether this particular incident

00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.999
was as the government’s the US
government claims an aberration or not.

00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:49.999
What we have seen in other
leagues, I mean I just…

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.999
a vast number of these type of incidents.
And when I say these type,

00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.999
what I mean is indiscriminate
attacks on civilians.

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.999
Not deliberate attacks on civilians

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.999
it’s important to make (inaudible)
but just not giving a damn,

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.999
not caring whether they are where
are they at. Sometimes occasional,

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.999
deliberate attacks on civilians, but those
do seem to be rare in the record but just,

00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.999
you know, maybe they are, maybe they’re not but
we want to shoot. And so they go, so go for it.

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.999
Ethan McCord and one of his fellow soldiers

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.999
who were in that ground unit,
they say that they were surprised

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:39.999
it was this video that leaked because
there were many, many worse incidences.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.999
And this was a sort of
every day occurrence.

00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.999
It’s not every day that
journalists are killed.

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:54.999
Although I did read the statistic that they have been seven
British journalists killed in Baghdad and all of them

00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:59.999
were killed by US military fire.

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.999
But probably the only reason we’re talking about this
now is because there were two journalists there,

00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.999
and they were sort of trackable and Reuters
put in Freedom of nation Act requests,

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.999
whereas if they weren’t journalists, if
they were just regular citizens of Baghdad

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.999
umm… we wouldn’t even be talking about the
material this would have been buried.

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:24.999
There would have been no internal investigation
at all which prompted the eventual leaking.

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.999
So this is a kind of tip of an awful
iceberg in many ways, isn’t it.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.999
Because a war like Iraq and
a war like Afghanistan

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:39.999
if not directed at
civilians, civilians become

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.999
the casualties, the civilians’ wars
in a way, in a sense something.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.999
No, it is a sole statement and absolute
power, corrupts absolutely and you can see

00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.999
from this video that
when you’re in an Apache

00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.999
with a presume lens that can show you
people’s face from one mile up in the sky.

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.999
And you have a thirty millimeter cannon, and
you shoot and there’s no effect against you,

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:09.999
you can’t even hear the screams.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:14.999
And when you get back to base. There’s no discipline
procedures against you, and when this happens every day,

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.999
for days, you know, for a year, of
course it’s incredibly corrupting.

00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.999
And, you know, these people who are shot

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:29.999
in the same way that the every day
person walks over ants on the street.

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.999
Because they just seem to be irrelevant, they
don’t complain, there’s no discipline procedure.

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:39.999
And so as the war goes along,

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.999
civilians do become just
something to, you know,

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:49.999
get rid of, because they’re annoying
umm… or have no concern over.

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.999
And why they… there are…

00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:59.999
why some of these civilian massacre cases

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.999
do achieve prominence and then I do

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.999
find genuine concern

00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.999
by some of the higher generals or
by other groups looking into them.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.999
And that’s not what we see for the everyday

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.999
cases of civilian kills and
we have acquired records

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.999
umm… of six years worth
of civilian kills for

00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.999
Iraq and Afghanistan. And
not just the big ones

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:39.999
where there’s a hundred people
killed or twenty people killed,

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.999
where there is some investigation of publicity
sometimes. But rather these sort of every day

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.999
incidences where a man might be in one…

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:54.999
as in one case in Afghanistan,

00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.999
a man is seen to be running away
after US soldiers approach.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.999
And they try and shoot him, gun’s jammed,
so he’s running towards a village,

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:09.999
so what do they do, gun’s have
jammed, they get the artillery

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.999
and they shell him, there’s one man
and they want shells towards him,

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.999
they over shoot in to village and
they kill a five year old boy.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:24.999
So there is hundreds and hundreds
of those small incidences

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.999
which sort of reveal the squalor
of war or the microscopic detail,

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:34.999
it’s not always these big killer
events it’s these little events

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.999
where there’s a lack of concern

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.999
and care about the sort of lethal engagement
of the use of lethal force. Another example,

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.999
you know, from Afghanistan

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:54.999
is American troops going through
an area not and receiving fire,

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.999
but they see some unexploded
ordinance, they see a

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.999
1.5 meter shell just sitting there,

00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:09.999
you know, in a dusty area.

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.999
And could be booby trap
possibly, could be booby trap,

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.999
might not, I mean they could just walk past,
what should they do, should they shoot it,

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.999
should they call a napalm disclosed (inaudible) squad, which
is what you normally do umm… and have it taken care of.

00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.999
So they call an air strike instead

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.999
to take out just this one unexploded shell.

00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:39.999
Now, presumably that these are guys in
Afghanistan and they’re bored and they sit on,

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.999
they want to see what an air strike is like up close,
it’s very easy, it’s in the daytime. They call an strike,

00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.999
the air strike overshoots
the shell into village.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.999
This is sort of just a lack
of concern and a lack care.

00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:59.999
Are these particular
incidents from the documents

00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.999
that you’ve released in July?

00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:09.999
Yes, that’s right, yeah. And there… I mean
there’s hundreds and hundreds like that.

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:14.999
Can you just describe the… the almost
the panorama of these documents

00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.999
they are across Afghanistan and Iraq.
So for… for Afghanistan

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.999
this is 91,000 reports
by troops on the ground

00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:29.999
and by some intelligence
people back at the base.

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.999
These are like done just after an
event happens or are updated during

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:39.999
the course of the day. So they’re
sort of raw data before…

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.999
before the Pentagon’s (inaudible) doctors had
a chance to message it. Although that said

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.999
sometimes troops don’t put things in there
that might incriminate them either. Umm…

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:54.999
And for Iraq this is 490,000
reports over this I believe.

00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:59.999
490,000. 490,000 over the
same period of time.

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.999
That’s a hell of a leak. Yeah,
that’s a really extraordinary thing

00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:09.999
this is the most finely
detailed history of war,

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.999
that has ever been disclosed.
Besides size times, locations,

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.999
kill counts, although the kill
counts as sometimes massaged umm…

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.999
but kill counts, people
detained, what happened

00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.999
from the US troops point of view, you know, they’re
not reliable narrators but you can’t hide everything

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.999
when you’re producing so much detail.
So quickly and…

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:39.999
I mean it’s just extraordinary, so we wrote a
computer program to add up all these kill counts.

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.999
Umm… And so for Afghanistan

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.999
this is in the hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands?
Hundreds of thousands. It’s important to remember this wasn’t just,

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.999
we go to aggregate figure of a hundred and
thousands, this hundreds of thousands

00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.999
is a result of adding up
all the individual cases

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.999
which are documented. So the individual
cases that the highest kill count

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:09.999
was 480 or so uh… related to a…

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:14.999
a stampede that occurred on a bridge.

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.999
480 people were killed in… Checking
this in news reports seems like

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.999
it was more like a thousand people were killed but in the
internal US military reporting, it’s 480 people who were killed.

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:29.999
And but that’s a single highest event

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:34.999
that’s sort of un… a bit unusual and then next
one down was a, the US sweeping operation

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.999
that killed about 300. Some of these events

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.999
are on the surface disturbing,
so the highest kill count event

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.999
in Afghanistan killed a 181 people

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.999
in a US operation led by Canada,

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.999
they called operation Medusa.
In the December 2006,

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.999
and their kill count of 181,

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.999
there was only one wounded.

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.999
One wounded. One wounded. It
says no civilians were killed

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.999
and there were no captures.
So if we then look at

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.999
what was a sort of military hardware deployed,
so it its peaks about some ground force sweeping

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.999
and so on, couple of people being
killed, they’ve been nearly everyone

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.999
who has been killed… was
killed by an IC 130 gunship.

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.999
So this is… an IC 130 is
a big… big cargo plane

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.999
which is being converted
to have be decked out

00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.999
with machine guns and take guns
and… So saturation fire from…

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.999
From high up, it is a plane that’s moving.
Yeah, and this is, it’s not exact.

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.999
Umm… And in the course of three hours,

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.999
62 people were described as being killed by this
and then there’s also an unexplained missing

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.999
90 or so people were at the, how they
got killed is not establishing a report

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.999
but they are listed as having
been killed in two places.

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.999
How do they call these all
the Taliban, the enemy uh…

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.999
Yup. They’re all called the enemy. Looking at… looking at that
operation Medusa kill umm… that broader operation quite interesting,

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.999
I mean I hadn’t heard about
this before, but this was the…

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.999
the biggest according to the Canadian military the
biggest operation, in Afghanistan post invasion.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.999
And but Afghanistan
wasn’t on people’s radar

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.999
until December 2006, Iraq was.
But during that week they said

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.999
that they killed about a thousand Taliban,

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.999
but actually what happened is that,
this was in a region of about 20k

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.999
out of Kandahar where there’s
also been (inaudible)

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.999
and it was the government
installed by US forces

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.999
post a 2001 invasion have
become extremely corrupt.

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.999
And the local people had
grown to support the Taliban

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.999
in sort of united effort to
clean up this government.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.999
And then when US and
Canadian and when ISAF,

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.999
so the Allied forces… NATO.
The western forces.

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.999
Yeah. …came in, these people…

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.999
not just Taliban they do seem to have been
Taliban there, but the local population

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.999
was supportive and so the
main in the vignette

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.999
the… the workers in the
vignette uh… were killed

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.999
along with these others. And it seems
to pre read the press reports,

00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:59.999
at times some press say it’s 50… 50% of Taliban, 50%
of local people. It’s pretty hard to gauge from the…

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.999
on the… on the ground reporting.
But we look at events like this,

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:09.999
like document shows and we see something pretty
disturbing, a lot of people killed in very little time

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.999
using indiscriminate fire,
umm… no investigation

00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:19.999
into 181 people being killed, the
biggest kill on a single event umm…

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:24.999
in Afghanistan post 2001. It doesn’t,

00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:29.999
it doesn’t smell right. Yeah,
suppose those during the killing,

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.999
who I’m assuming they regard everybody as the Taliban or
as insurgents, so who isn’t, children… The pattern to the…

00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.999
the pattern we see in Iraq and Afghanistan,

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.999
the very clear pattern and it’s not just me
who sees, it’s been other war reporters,

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.999
is that anyone who’s a man is,

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.999
and dead is an insurgent. That’s how
they always listed all reports,

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.999
and it’s only after there’s some
investigation, usually stimulated by the press

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.999
or my umm… competing
military reporting on it.

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:09.999
That then there’s a sort of
pull down from that number.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:14.999
Yeah. So, you know, in any man who
is dead is a insurgent in Taliban,

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.999
children if their bodies are whole
enough to see and remember things like

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.999
thirty millimeter cannon fire
would decimate a body umm…

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.999
are listed as children. So they’re not the
citizen insurgents, and women can go either way.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.999
And so, as an example,
if we look at Kunduz,

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.999
this is umm… an air strike that
occurred in Afghanistan last year

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.999
where uh… it was called in
by the German military.

00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:49.999
Petrol tankers about three kilometers away

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:54.999
from (inaudible) positions had been put
in a river bed and the local people were,

00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:59.999
unlading the petrol from them taking this
off. Now, the allegation is that the Taliban

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.999
hijacked these petrol tankers, and (inaudible)
giving the petrol to local population

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.999
which is quite possibly true. I mean, maybe
they’re trying to carry favor work population

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.999
but the reality is, there was over hundred
people clustered around this tanker…

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.999
tanker taking the petrol. And they weren’t
going and they are sitting there. Umm…

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.999
So air strike was called in and
killed most of these people.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.999
Yet, when we look at the internal
military reporting by the United States

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.999
what we see is in these Leak reports.

00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.999
57 insurgents killed. When we look
at the internal military reporting

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.999
for the (inaudible)

00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.999
of Iraq massacre which included two Reuters
journalists that happened in July 2007,

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.999
what we see is fourteen people killed,

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.999
and they were actually between
18 to 26 people killed.

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.999
And all of them insurgents except for

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.999
two children who were wounded. So
even the Reuters cameramen were…

00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.999
Listed as insurgents. As insurgents.
Mm-hmm.

00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.999
Until Reuters came in contact and said,
\"Hey, where’s our cameraman?\" Yeah, that,

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.999
I mean for you to receive
that volume of documentation

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:29.999
suggests that there must be
something of a rebellion

00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.999
going on within the system.
Yes, but I mean it’s,

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:39.999
the one hopeful thing is in
fact that there are good people

00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.999
in the US military, there are good people
in military intelligence organizations.

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.999
And some of those people have had
enough, and so they provide…

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:54.999
provide us with evidence
of abuse and that’s umm…

00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:59.999
is a sort of another way of
being a conscientious objector.

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.999
And in fact arguably a far
more powerful way of objecting

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.999
to (inaudible). Yeah. And
what about among journalists,

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.999
is there a rebellion amongst
journalists, umm… you said some time ago

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.999
I think the journalists need to respect

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.999
their readers and viewers.

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.999
How did… how did journalists by and large

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.999
react to WikiLeaks. Of course some

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:39.999
are very impressed obviously, but
you’ve described for example,

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.999
the reaction in the United
States with CNN and NBC

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:49.999
and CBS and so on that journalist
being used to justify.

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.999
So how did journalists,

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.999
how were journalists dealing with the arrival
of WikiLeaks? Yeah, a very interesting mixture.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.999
So, you know, it seems like all the good journalist
supporters and over all the bad ones don’t.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:09.999
But of course maybe that’s just my
interpretation based upon their support.

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.999
Probably a good interpretation. But umm…

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.999
it does seem that the more accomplished and independent
journalist, the more they are likely to support us.

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:24.999
The more they are able in fact to…

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.999
the more established they are as an independent
journalist with their own independent reputation

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.999
that they can choose, to take from one
newspaper to another, they can choose

00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:39.999
to take from one network to another, if
they’re stopped around. It seems like

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:44.999
the more they are able to
state their support for us,

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:49.999
where as the journalists
who are not in that

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.999
position of freedom to the more
part of the group of the company,

00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.999
their company men umm… they’re
more likely to be critical.

00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.999
Because you’re very… WikiLeaks
is very threatening to systems,

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:09.999
and the BBC as a system, the network making

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.999
this documentary ITV as a system.
Individual journalists

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.999
as opposed to the organizations that
they’re working are supportive of us.

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.999
In that, they may be able to collaborate
with us or use our material,

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.999
and that can be extremely important material.
And some people have an ability to see that

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:34.999
and they want to help them, and get
that material out to the public

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.999
or bring extra angles that, you know, (inaudible) use
their existing understanding to help flush it out.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.999
So they see us as, you know, as umm…

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.999
colleagues and then we have a group
that sees us as competition,

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:54.999
that sees us as a threat and in
the regular sort of competitive…

00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.999
news competitive sense, but also in that we

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.999
are demanding certain standards,
certain higher levels of information,

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:09.999
hard to get information. And
you do use primary sources

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.999
in material that has been released in print,
so that makes them have to work harder,

00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.999
so they see as a threat. And
then there’s another group

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:24.999
that appreciates your… appreciates what we’re
doing, because we’re drawing the fire,

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:29.999
so we are the free press Vanguard.
We are the sort of defender,

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.999
whistle blowers and we knew
that whole field further out,

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:39.999
and that creates a sort of a vacuum behind
us into which these people can come,

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.999
which doesn’t have any fire, because
we’re… we’re attracting the opposition

00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:49.999
by pushing people in.
And that’s quite nice,

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:54.999
because over the last four years,
we have been changing the standard.

00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:59.999
So to some degree we are
now the status quo.

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.999
We are something that exist as an
economic and political and social…

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:09.999
You are the mainstream?
Didn’t go quite that far but…

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:14.999
but there’s an understanding of political and
economic understanding that there is a place

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.999
for WikiLeaks in this world. And that if we
were to disappear, that would be something new.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:24.999
It’s quite, yeah it’s quite interesting
that how you’ve shifted in,

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:29.999
I mean here, the guardian media pages

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.999
every year lists hundred
most important media people,

00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.999
you’ve probably seen this. This year
they’ve included you. Yeah, this year 58,

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.999
but last year we weren’t even there at all.
That’s quite an improvement.

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:49.999
The fact that you’re in there is
interesting. Very interesting,

00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:54.999
I mean I… it’s true we do have some influence
but I think it’s also the case that.

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:59.999
Those people in the guardian whoever put that atleast
together, I’m sure it’s totally accurately is,

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.999
but umm… I’m sure that’s also a desire,

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.999
it is a desire for us

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:14.999
to be leading in that way, and if
they want to support… support us

00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.999
and say that we do something beneficial
for them which is to open up this space.

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:24.999
I mean there’s… there’s
clearly a big shift underway

00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:29.999
and we’ve talked about this already.

00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.999
But the shift is from traditional
so-called mainstream journalists…

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.999
journalism to what has become
known as citizen journalism.

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.999
Is that

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:49.999
is that a very significant shift
now, it’s… is it is the whole nature

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:54.999
of journalism likely to change
because of this… this trend.

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:59.999
It is changing. Uh…

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:04.999
And that I… the changes will be dramatic.
But I’m not

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.999
one to sell citizen journalism
as being at the moment umm…

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:14.999
being a great answer yet.
And because what I see

00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:19.999
in the alternative press, is
very little journalism going on,

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:24.999
in fact what do I see is people

00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.999
taking the front page in New York Times

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.999
and using that is their issue of the day.
And saying I don’t agree with it,

00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.999
or I do agree with it. And
when… our idea is that,

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:44.999
our material would spark tremendous
amounts of citizen journalism,

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:49.999
because all these people who write
opinion pieces on blogs and so on,

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.999
when given the complaint, why aren’t
you doing any real journalism,

00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.999
why aren’t you going on research, or investigating
something. They say, \"Well, it takes a long time

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:04.999
to build up sources, so we don’t have anything
new to talk about, so we have to just

00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:09.999
analyze what the mainstream
press are doing.\"

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:14.999
But we have produced the hundreds of
thousands or millions of millions of pages

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:19.999
umm… of new source material
that these people could analyze

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:24.999
and could report, and it’s
extremely rare that they do.

00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.999
So that the pacific example that
I like to use was we got hold

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.999
of a classified US intelligence report
into what happened in the war in Fallujah.

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:39.999
So this was a left (inaudible), umm…

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.999
that invasion of the town of
Fallujah in Iraq in 2004,

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:49.999
of course Iraq itself had already been
invaded, but Fallujah was some kind of holdout

00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:54.999
to the new government that had been
put in place by United States,

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.999
the coalition provisional authority.
And that the circumstances

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.999
of that invasion was with some US
contractors going through Syria

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:09.999
had been killed and… anyway sorry,

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:14.999
I’m not willing to go into the detail,
but that was a very bloody invasion,

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.999
and it ended up with a pullout.

00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:24.999
And a reinvasion some five months later.
So what were the circumstances?

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.999
Everyone knew that all sorts of
tragedy had occurred in that town.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:34.999
This report in fact revealed both
how things progress militarily,

00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:39.999
how things progress politically,
spoke specifically about Paul Bremer

00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:44.999
who was the head of the Coalition Provisional
Authority, the role of Al Jazeera in that town

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:49.999
that the media war as well as the on the
ground war. The different tribal regions

00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:54.999
classified secret by a US army ground
intelligence. So we took this classified

00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:59.999
US intelligence report about
Fallujah and released it.

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:04.999
So all citizen journalists, academics,

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.999
employed journalists would analyze it,

00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.999
write about it, call up the US
military and asked them about it.

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.999
Ask the countries involved, human rights groups
what was going on exactly, this was the…

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:24.999
the role (inaudible) that you needed
to actually do some journalism.

00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:29.999
And mailed this out to 3,500 people

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.999
on our mailing list. And the result was

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:39.999
not a single citizen
journalist did anything.

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.999
The first person to publish was
a friend Sean Waterman at UPI,

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.999
he was the national security reporter.
And then another five umm…

00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:54.999
professional press journalists,

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:59.999
not all of them full times journalists.
Some working for the Asia, at times

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:04.999
half time and working for the Cato Institute,
half time as an example of one of these five.

00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.999
Yeah. But umm… the bloggers,

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:14.999
the political activists of all kinds uh… in
fact didn’t do anything with this material.

00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:19.999
So, I mean that’s interesting so the
real information or can almost paralyze

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.999
as if they don’t know what to do with it.

00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:29.999
Well, over time we’re saying it was sort of training
people up a bit. So it’s getting better over time.

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.999
People just dying to become used to this military information
nomenclature, understanding that when we release it,

00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:39.999
it is definitely true. Umm…

00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:44.999
But, yeah, it is very surprising
effect, I mean that as an example,

00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:49.999
it looked good, it wasn’t just that it had
important details, it wasn’t too long,

00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.999
it was only 630 pages, it’s accessible.
It had a nice map of Fallujah

00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:59.999
on the front split into tribal regions.
And no one picked it up?

00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:04.999
No one picked it up. And eventually
professional press picked it up.

00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:09.999
You’re making some very
serious enemies. Uh…

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:14.999
Not least of all, a government
engaged in two rapacious wars.

00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:19.999
How do you deal with

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:24.999
what must be a sense of that danger,
do you ignore it or do you,

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:29.999
umm… accommodate it within yourself?
Not at all.

00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:34.999
I think, you know, a lot of people
say that we’re very courageous

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.999
in our work. And I wouldn’t reject

00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:44.999
that label entirely, we’re
not uncourageous, but to me,

00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:49.999
courage is not the absence of fear at all, courage
is through the intellectual mastery of fear

00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.999
by understanding. So we did
understand what the risks are,

00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:59.999
and having understood them right,
to navigate the path through them.

00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.999
One of my good friends who’s a reporter
for the Standard newspaper in Kenya,

00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:09.999
investigative head, whenever he
is about to publish a big story

00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:14.999
exposing the Kenyan government, and they will raid, the
newspapers raided by the police a couple of years ago.

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.999
Umm… He publishes, he goes to Tanzania,

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.999
he waits to see what happens. Eventually, it becomes
clear what’s going to happen and he comes back,

00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.999
if he doesn’t understand (inaudible) be understands the
risk and he sees that it’s relatively a lot of risk

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.999
and he publishes and he stays in Nairobi.
And so that’s how we work.

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:39.999
What… what do you do?
Because you’re (inaudible)

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:44.999
unlikely to go to the United
States at the moment.

00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.999
Well, in July of 2010

00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:54.999
I had three speaking engagements

00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:59.999
in the United States including one at the Investigative
Reporters and Editors conference in Las Vegas.

00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.999
A panel there with Scott rising,

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:09.999
New York Times, national security reporter
and Valerie Plame was also in the panel.

00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:14.999
I canceled my visit to United
States because of some information

00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:19.999
that was coming out from Al sources
within the US administration saying that,

00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:24.999
it would be a danger to me
to go to United States.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:29.999
In the… in the Pentagon recently,

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:34.999
I asked the assistant secretary
of defense BrianWickmann(ph).

00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.999
This, I said, \"Can you as a senior
official of the United States government,

00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:44.999
can you give a guarantee that
the editors of WikiLeaks

00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:49.999
and the editor in chief himself
who is not American,\" that you,

00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:54.999
\"are not in danger, that they themselves
will not be subjected to the kind of hunt

00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:59.999
that we’ve read about it in the media.\"

00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:04.999
And his reply in a nutshell, \"Well, first
of all, it’s not my position to give

00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:09.999
guarantees on anything.\" I mean,

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:14.999
how do you feel about that?

00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:19.999
More it sounds like keeping all
options on the table to me. And but…

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:24.999
But they are not good options, are they? I
do… I don’t want to dramatize this too much.

00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:29.999
But you’re in a sort of
unique position in a way,

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:34.999
uh… aren’t you? I don’t… When
there’s been a WikiLeaks before…

00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:39.999
Yeah, there hasn’t and they
don’t know how to deal with us,

00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:44.999
and there’s no, I mean, something that
has preserved us, is that there’s no

00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:49.999
umm… in the United States or in
any other country. There is no

00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:54.999
department to deal with WikiLeaks. Yeah. Most of those
government departments split up into regional focuses.

00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:59.999
So there’s no sort

00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:04.999
of specialist in dealing with what we are understanding,
what we are understanding how to deal with this,

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:09.999
but I mean there are serious
statements coming out

00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:14.999
of the US administration under the surface that
imply that they would not forward the removal.

00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.999
They would not follow the rules. And imply
that they would not follow the rules,

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:24.999
or in that that is a serious matter. It’s a
certain record there, yeah. And there were

00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:29.999
senior figures like,
(inaudible), giving me warnings,

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:34.999
a famous US national security reporter and there
were, I mean we listened to those warnings

00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:39.999
and took appropriate security
precautions, that said,

00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:44.999
I think our political position in
countries like United Kingdom,

00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.999
Australia, Iceland, Germany
and other countries

00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:54.999
with less strength is such
that it is impossible to,

00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:59.999
I mean arrest me here
in the United Kingdom.

00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:04.999
Politically it is just not possible to
do that. You know, why some intermediary

00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:09.999
bureaucrat might do it and not
understand the political risk.

00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:14.999
Eventually the matter would
be pushed up high enough

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.999
and, you know, people in a better
understanding of politics, that will go,

00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:24.999
do not do that, that’s just going to
create a terrible political dilemma

00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.999
for everyone concerned, don’t do it.
I… I know your… your preemptive strike

00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:34.999
in response when you posted on WikiLeaks,

00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:39.999
\"Elite Pentagon document that says
that the US intelligence intends

00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:44.999
to destroy WikiLeaks, and
the words used are that

00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:49.999
they would wanted to fatally
marginalize the organization.\"

00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:54.999
Yeah, and destroy our center of gravity
by using sort of military language

00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:59.999
which is what they say is
the… the trust that sources

00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.999
and public happiness, they can destroy that,
then they can stop US military whistle blowers

00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:09.999
coming to us, and they say
the word whistleblower.

00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:14.999
I mean, they’re not talking about umm… or at least
not just talking about unauthorized disclosures

00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:19.999
which may or may not be revealing abuse.

00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:24.999
They are saying whistleblowers, people who reveal abuse,
they give examples, examples given a Guantanamo Bay,

00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:29.999
when they release the main (inaudible) with
this which revealed that they’re hiding people

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:34.999
from the Red Cross falsifying
documents and so on. Umm…

00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:39.999
Fallujah and abuses that we revealed there,
and in number of other cases, so these are…

00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.999
they are upset with us because we are
revealing abuses and embarrassing

00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:49.999
the United States military.
So we release that report

00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:54.999
which was written in 2008, we
released this earlier in 2010.

00:59:55.000 --> 00:59:59.999
As, you know, maybe as a
preemptive strike (inaudible)

01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:04.999
it’s putting them on notice uh… and by us
releasing that there is an understanding,

01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:09.999
now that didn’t come from
nowhere, that report clearly

01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:14.999
came from some intelligence
insiders in the United States.

01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.999
We have support inside the
US intelligence community.

01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:24.999
So it is… it is difficult and dangerous

01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:29.999
for people within the US intelligence
community to try and investigate us

01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:34.999
because they will be dissidents or
they will step forward and reveal it.

01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:39.999
So they have to trade very carefully. What happens
when you return to Australia your homeland,

01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:44.999
because when you went back recently
umm… they took away your passport.

01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:49.999
Saying that it was looked
worn and something.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:54.999
You perhaps needed a new one,

01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:59.999
but miraculously you didn’t need a new one,
they gave it back to you some time later.

01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:04.999
Yeah, and just a little bit after
that they also searched my bags

01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:09.999
and made references to the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs and Australian Federal Police,

01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:14.999
a specific information that had
to come off their database file.

01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.999
So it’s quite interesting in a
Australia, I mean there is a sort of

01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:24.999
patriotism in Australia that is
proud of WikiLeaks and proud of me.

01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:29.999
Mm-hmm. And that is
defensive, and as a result

01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.999
there have been very positive
articles in… in the Fairfax press

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:39.999
and in the Australian.

01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:44.999
So I’m told by my politically
connected people in Australia that

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:49.999
it would be extremely difficult
to arrest me detain me

01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:54.999
or deport me or our other
volunteers in Australia,

01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:59.999
that said there has been
extensive spying umm…

01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:04.999
on our people in that country.
(inaudible) has been agreed to,

01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:09.999
in some way by the Australian government

01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:14.999
and we have some information about the
Australian government being involved in that.

01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:19.999
Is it hard after a while to keep

01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:24.999
these shadows at bay, would
you get used to them,

01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:29.999
you must say to yourself, \"Look, I
can’t become paranoid about this,

01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:34.999
you know, I’m going to live a
normal life.\" Is that difficult?

01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:39.999
No, it’s become pretty easy, I mean,
we have some security portions,

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:44.999
we have some security procedures, we have
different people doing different things

01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:49.999
in different places depending on
their need for security. For me,

01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:54.999
I mean it doesn’t matter if I’m followed around
or provided I’m not meeting with a source.

01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:59.999
Quite a few BBC journalists

01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:04.999
who have got in touch with
me and want to talk about

01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:09.999
umm… the pressure within
the BBC in other words,

01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:14.999
they represent the kind of rebellion
that you’re describing. What would you

01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:19.999
say to people like then

01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:24.999
in an institution like the
BBC or indeed journalists

01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:29.999
who are led by their conscience, or
just by their professional integrity

01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:34.999
within certain organizations, what would
you say to them? What can they do?

01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:39.999
Oh, when… when your stories
are killed get them to us

01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:44.999
and we’ll publish them,

01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:49.999
it’s that simple as one, or when the primary source material is suppressed
get them to us. I mean you don’t… you don’t have to leave the institution,

01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:54.999
you can work on the inside and on
the outside and keep this line

01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:59.999
between the two invisible. So what they can’t get on air
and what they can get in the paper give to WikiLeaks.

01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:04.999
Yeah. And of course that
doesn’t, you know, there’s no,

01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:09.999
there’s not so much career motivation to that, because
(inaudible) stick your name on it. At the time,

01:04:10.000 --> 01:04:14.999
but later on, maybe you can put your name on
it, you know, when you leave the institution.

01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:19.999
What wouldn’t you except?
What wouldn’t you publish?

01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:24.999
What Leak wouldn’t you publish?
Unlike every other news organization,

01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:29.999
we say precisely in policy what
we will and will not except

01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:34.999
the material that we publish.

01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:39.999
So we say to whistleblowers, we will take
material that hasn’t appeared before,

01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:44.999
it is being some force suppressing it legal
or threat of violence or being fired.

01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:49.999
And that is of diplomatic political ethical

01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:54.999
or historical significance and
that you didn’t write yourself.

01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:59.999
So provided it fits that, we will publish it. Now,
we might go through some harm minimization process

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:04.999
in the interim. So the only
forms that has taken is,

01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:09.999
I think that with the British National
Party when we publish their secret

01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:14.999
uh… membership list we contacted all
these people ahead of time, we said,

01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:19.999
\"No, we’re going to publish this in a few days.
We’re giving you the heads up just in case,

01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:24.999
this, you know, your telephone number being
public and so on it causes problems,

01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:29.999
you go and sort it out\" So that has

01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:34.999
always worked so far. We’re aware
of no instance where anyone

01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:39.999
has come to any sort of physical harm as
a result of anything we’ve published,

01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:44.999
we are aware of quite a few results where
people have been fired or lost elections,

01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:49.999
as a result of things that we’ve published, but
that seem to be on the side of the angels.

01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:54.999
If at some stage, that policy
doesn’t seem to be working,

01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:59.999
then we will create a new policy.
Remember, the goal is Justice

01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:04.999
and the means transparency, we don’t confuse
these two. The propaganda efforts of governments

01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:09.999
has become vast.

01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:14.999
I read an AP investigation that said the
US for spending 4… had spent 4.7 billion

01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:19.999
over the last five years on
basically winning hearts and minds,

01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:24.999
not of the enemy but of a certain people.
Uh… I mean this…

01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:29.999
this kind of information war and portray,

01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:34.999
a sternal(ph) portrayer sent his counterinsurgency
manual refers to wars of perception

01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:39.999
in which the media is…
is one of the weapons.

01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:44.999
So information war has
never been more important,

01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:49.999
but what happens when with the
leaks runs into the United Kingdom

01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:54.999
which has some of the most draconian
secrecy laws in the world,

01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:59.999
such as the Official Secrets Act.
Is it more difficult here to…

01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:04.999
to mine information? We haven’t found

01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:09.999
a problem publishing a UK
information, I mean when

01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:14.999
we look at the Official Secrets
Act label documents we see

01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:19.999
they state that it is an offense
to retain the information,

01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:24.999
and it is an offense to
destroy the information.

01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:29.999
So the only possible outcome is that
we have to publish the information.

01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:34.999
And that’s what you’re trying…

01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:39.999
We truly have done on many, many occasions.
I noticed one that… one of… one of those

01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:44.999
that I had a personal
interest in was one that

01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:49.999
from the Ministry of Defense
classified document

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:54.999
that equated terrorists with
investigative journalists as threats.

01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:59.999
And Russian spies. And Russian spies.
Yeah, as… as, in fact, in many sections

01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:04.999
of their report investigative journalists are the
number one threat to the sort of information security

01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:09.999
of the Ministry of Defense, that
was a two thousand page document

01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:14.999
on how to stop Leaks.

01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:19.999
Dispute events which… which really.
I didn’t know whether to be

01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:25.000
offended or honored. Well, it’s
nice to be having in impact.